Rivera_20180320

Q: This is Amy Starecheski. I'm interviewing Maxi Rivera. And today is March 20, 2018. We're in his apartment, his house, on 157th Street in Melrose.

And like I said, if it's OK with you, I'd like to start at the beginning. So can you say your name and tell me where and when you were born, and a little bit about your early life, your childhood, your family? Say anything you want, and I'll jump in and ask questions if you get stuck. But I'm eager to hear.

RIVERA: OK. My name is Maximino Rivera. People know me throughout my life by Maxi. I was born in el barrio Puente de Jobo, pueblo de Guayama, Puerto Rico. That's in the south side of the island of Puerto Rico. I was born in 1950. I 00:01:00lived in Puerto Rico until 1963. I was 13 years old when my family, my parents relocate to New York.

I'm from a family of nine. We are nine brothers and sister, a very united family. My father was a sugarcane cutter, but very strict and responsible person. The person that I am today-- I owe it to him, if it wasn't because of him, I wouldn't be right here now, wouldn't be the person that I am now, even though when I was growing up, I didn't understand. I think he was very mean, or 00:02:00he was doing the right thing. He showed us some value. And I took those value with me throughout my life.

When we moved to New York in 1963, it was, I think, July 6, 1963. We came to live in 144th Street, 457 East-- 144th Street between Willis and Brook. If I tell you about my youth, I had a great youth, even though it was not easy when you are a teenager moving from a place that small-- everybody knew each other, 00:03:00everybody-- it was people's responsibility to help raise all the kids. If you see somebody doing something wrong, they will stop you, or they will go to your father and take it to your father, your mother right away.

Now, coming to New York, it was a very big experience. I remember going to the window and looking in the street, seeing the kids playing. It was a summer time, and I used to cry because I missed my Puerto Rico. I missed being free, roaming wherever. I want to go to a lake. I want to go a brook. I want to go to fishing or whatever I want to do. We were free.

Then over here, all of a sudden, we were in an apartment building. I never saw an apartment building in my life. There were small houses. Now, dealing with the 00:04:00culture-- I remember my brother and I-- my brother, Junior, rest in peace. He was two years older than me, so we were always very together-- they used to call us jibaro. Oh, the jibaro. Oh, jibaro, hick-- jibaro, the people that work in the sugarcane in Puerto Rico. They come from the country. They didn't have no intelligence, according to those days.

Now, you call a person jibaro, a Puerto Rican, a jibaro, he say, I'm proud to be a jibaro But those days, it was fighting words. And my brother and I-- I was 13; he was 15-- we used to fight. We used to fight. They used to call-- but going back, we were talking before about music probably, culture bringing people together-- sport. Many of these kids, you know, [SPANISH]. But we were good 00:05:00playing baseball.

So when they saw my brother making those play and running and hitting. Me, I wasn't that great. I wasn't that good. But if my brother-- if I didn't play, my brother didn't play. So he was like always like-- so that brought us more together with the people.

And then the other thing was the way I was raised and talking about older people, the-- our culture, the way we were teached to respect other people and treat them with respect, all that, a lot of people liked us. And with Spanish was-- So I started working in the grocery store. I was 14 years old. No, before that, I took a shoeshine box. I told my sister-- she's younger. She was around 11 years old. And she used to carry that shoeshine box and used to walk down Willis Avenue to 149th and Third Avenue. And there were a lot of people lined up 00:06:00shining shoes. And people used to come here to get their shoes shined. So I started doing shoeshine. I always liked trying to make a dollar.

From there, I started working the super-- in the grocery store. And I was getting like $10, $8 a week. And then, I used to-- they used to-- a lot of customers, they used to buy groceries, so I used to make deliveries. Then, there was no elevator. Forget it. There was elevator. I used to go five flights, four flights up, and they used to give me bottles.

Those days, they had the big Coke, Pepsi Cola bottle and the smaller-- they used to charge $5-- $0.05 for the big Pepsi Cola. And the little one was like $0.03. And they used to give boxes of bottles. I used to go into a store and cash it. I used to make like $15, $20. That was good money. And I used to buy clothes for me, for my brother.

Because us Puerto Ricans-- and during the '60s, dress was like-- dressing, we 00:07:00were used to dressed to kill. It was those-- I that was the era of dressing. People used to charm with suits, playboy shoes. And we used to go dancing. And after that, I started working National Shoes part-time. I was going to DeWitt Clinton High School. I was working National Shoes.

1969, I graduated from high school. Lot of my friends that we went to school together from 144th, and went to Clark Jr. High School to DeWitt Clinton, they dropped out of school. But guess what? None of them got drafted. Finish school June, the end of June. By the middle of July, I received a letter to go to 00:08:00Whitehall, at that time, it was Whitehall downtown, by South Ferry to an endorsement center to take a physical.

When I got the physical, had the physical, we're later getting calls from the Marines, from the Navy, the Air Force. Oh, you know, I was going to the Army anyway. You join. Then, I got the letter with the token, one-way token to go report. So I joined the Marines.

I say if I'm going to go to war-- I was 19 years old. And I know I was going to go to Vietnam. I was the last of the people who got drafted with the mandatory 00:09:00in the pool. I was one of the last ones, with my luck, so that's how I ended up in the Marines.

I said, I'm going with the Marines, because they're the best fighting according to the propaganda. And then, the uniforms looked good. And the ladies, they liked that uniform. So I went to the Marines. They were fine.

I saw the south and then started experimenting with South Carolina. I remember one day we went out-- the only time they went out to town, we went to town, a group of us-- Mexican, Puerto Rican, black, you know. And we were coming out about 2 o'clock in the morning. We were walking to get transportation to get to the base. [SQUEALS] Cops coming, took all the Mexicans. And then, they [INAUDIBLE]

I don't know why they didn't took me. And they were saying, We weren't doing nothing. We were drinking like everybody else, all Marines, they would go to 00:10:00drink. That's how they go party. And they took them for intoxicated in public and this shit.

And then, there was a guy that used to-- in our company-- white guy-- he used to live off base. He used to take us. And he used to say, yeah, I'm going to take you for a ride so you can see, right? He used to have a .38 gun and put in the windshield. I said, what the fuck is that for? Oh, no, here in the south, you know, guns, you know, you've got the right to have gun. And it's to protect yourself. And, what the hell? I was young. I never thought-- then we, years out, you know.

So I never went back to town. I used to come here every weekend. There used to be car, people-- used to come to 42nd. People used to have car, come to New York 00:11:00on the weekend. So you used to pay $10 and get over here. And then one day, we were drinking. We were having fun. There were three of us. And we were a lot of friends, Puerto Rican friends. One came-- two of them came from Puerto Rico, directly from Puerto Rico to the Marines, came from the Bronx.

I remember that night, we were having party. When I got to my-- to where I live, to the barracks-- when I got to the barracks, a lot of people were awake. They had all kind of orders. They said, Rivera, take a look. You're my guy. You might be shipped out. I said where at? They said, westpa. Westpa means overseas. Westpa order get in.

When I looked, there you go. Reporting to California, California-Okinawa, 00:12:00Okinawa-Vietnam. I said, wow.

My other friend is-- one went to Guantanamo, and the other one went to Vieques. And I went to Vietnam. And we used to write-- I never saw them. We used to write-- when I was in Vietnam, we used to write. But I never got to see them back when came back to the States.

And I said the best thing that happened to me was that I was sent to Vietnam, because if I would have sent to Vieques, I would've been jailed or-- I would have been in jail or dead. Because the Marines-- that's why I changed my mind in Vietnam-- get drunk and they're stupid.

What changed my view in Vietnam was the discrimination, the corruption. It was not the fight with North Vietnam, fighting the Vietnamese or living under the monsoon for three months, under the water, or living under the heat conditions-- 100, 120 degrees almost every day. That didn't bother me. What really changed was the corruption and the racist that was taking place.

Like I said, I came from a family that taught value, culture, respect, love for other people. And what I saw in Vietnam, it was like woman, the Vietnamese woman, the kids, they were like-- woman, they were like prostitute for-- they 00:14:00look at it-- they didn't look as a human being. They used to go into the villages and tried to abuse.

Papasan and babysan, when they used to walk together, they walked hand in-- holding hands. That's love-- grandpa or pop or whatever. For the American, that was gay, two gay people. Oh, mira, two men holding hands. It was trauma.

And then the other aspect-- you're young. We were all young, 19. Our hormone was 00:15:00high, 19. Now, if we would get caught with a Vietnamese woman, we would get busted. But inside the base in the compound, what we called the lifers, the one that was staff and CO, E-6 and above, and the officer, they had their own club. They used to bring Vietnamese girl to clean their hooches, wash their clothes, and they seemed to have sex. Oh yeah. And they get away with it, but we get caught--

The other thing was, in the Marines, you had to be an E-6 a staff sergeant or above, to be able to buy liquor or rum. Shit, us Puerto Ricans, we like to drink 00:16:00rum, and we couldn't buy it. We were underage. And not even the age, because we were not at E-6. But we were good to fight the damn war.

Army, they didn't give a shit. In the Army, so you were 21, you buy your liquor. So all of this then -- We used to a fight the North Vietnamese and the lifers. We're fighting two wars. It got to the point where we couldn't take it. And I'm talking about Hispanics. I'm talking about white, every-- you know, people that were conscious-- We didn't have accept what was going on.

One day, we went-- and I never forgot-- we went and that's when my life, I took a melatin from it. It was the day before Thanksgiving. We were in a convoy. I 00:17:00was a truck driver of machine-- a 50 machine-gunner. And we used to go in convoys. Oops, sorry [mic noise]. We used to get a convoy different places, different-- from all over the south taking, food, ammunition up.

One day, we went on the pace truck. The pace truck was the one that goes in the front, like 50 meters, 100 meters in front. And that truck, they put some steel bars, sandbags. They prepare real heavy just in case they hit a mine, the impact wouldn't be that big.

The second truck, our truck, was the gun truck with a radio. I used to always be the machine gunner and the radio. I used to have a friend of mine who was from Maine-- Fonyuman, I forgot his name-- and we used to always be partners all the 00:18:00time. He was half-French, Fonyumin. I'll never forget.

So that day, when we-- boom! Oh my god. Waiting one-- one day, something was gonna happen, but we never-- we were high, to tell you. Everybody was smoking pot, everybody, because that's the only way we could make it. We were smoking, and that throws his up. [MAKES EXPLOSION NOISE] Oh my god.

One guy got killed, and the other guy went to the hospital. The thing is that, Thanksgiving, right? You're away, 19 years, 20 years old-- 20 years-- just 20 00:19:00years old. You're away from your family in no land. Raining and raining and raining. And when we got back to the base, a major-- never forgot-- Fazulla-- anyway-- Frizel-- Major Frizel. "Come on. Marines! Get in formation!"

And he was starting, "If that fucking marine would have had his flak jacket he wouldn't have been dead now." And he started-- oh man. We just dispersed. And he say, "Come back! Marines, back in forma--" [Inaudible], man. Do whatever the fuck you want to do. And from there on, my life changed. This is what I get?

I came and joined the Marines and came to fight communists, according to communism was taking over the world. We were so brainwashed in boot camp out of this shit. And this is not what's happening. And from that moment, I say, god, thank you for sending me to Vietnam. If I would have been in Vieques, I would have been dead. Because we're not allowed-- these people get drunk, go into town, and try to abuse my people. Because I'm a Puerto Rican, 150% I love my people.

I realized from them on, my life changed. I became a militant. I joined an underground organization. They call it the Mao Mao. It's a black organization. And we started fighting the-- not the white, but the lifers. When they used to 00:21:00get drunk and go to sleep, we used to throw in gas grenades. We used to gas them. Stay with the spoon, and throw it in, and we'd run. Come to a time they had to put-- they had to put a guard duty around their hooches.

I knew they were going to lose the war. I knew the American was for a big kick in the ass in Vietnam, because it was so divided, man. The soldiers, they were not happy. When they got there, they didn't want no part of it, [INAUDIBLE]. That's what changed my whole life.

I remember returning-- now, my return, dying to get home, sent me in a ship 00:22:00coming back. It was a RSP 36. And I forget-- I never been in a ship. So what I remind it carried. There was one--a gun ship. That was the one they used to bomb Cambodia in 1968, Khe Sanh, the war. We were there for 26 days.

I was like seeing water, every time we had to change the time. We would change, and looking at the water, when I saw those mountains of San Diego-- when I was a kid in Puerto Rico, I came out in a play about Christopher Columbus discover Puerto Rico. I was one of the people that was in the-- in the ship when Christopher Columbus got to Puerto Rico, where he got, and I'd say, tierra! 00:23:00Tierra! Land! Land! They were happy to see land. And that was the way I was happy. And I thought this on the boat-- tierra! Tierra! Land! Finally, we saw land. And I was just about two weeks before my 21st birthday.

We were there-- they took us to Camp Pendleton. By the mountain, it's beautiful. First time I've been in California like this. Because I just-- when I went to Vietnam, we just made a stop and went through Cali-- Okinawa. We were there for a week training.

You don't know, the riot. The night before I got discharge, there was a big riot inside the base between blacks and white. I told my friend, stay away. We are 00:24:00leaving tomorrow. Don't even get near, bro. But that's how bad their relationship, the race relationship. And that's what happened in Vietnam too, in Vietnam. It was inside fighting, so much infight between the American soldiers.

When I got back, I remember going to a plane. Called my family, and they all went to pick me up at the airport. But they didn't know exactly at what time I was coming in, so I took a cab. But when I was in the plane, they served me food, I was like, looking at everybody. It's been a year that I haven't been around people, eating. And it was like, wow. I feel like take the food with my 00:25:00hand, like somebody who never had a fork and a spoon.

Anyway, when I got home-- I used to live in 100-- We moved from 144, for about two years, to 160 and Morris. And when I got to Morris, we used to live in a walk-in apartment. Am I right? It was just like that. So the sidewalk-- I got out of the cab, my taxi, there are my cousins, my sisters, and they were all waiting outside. And they grabbed me.

[SNIFFLING]

I said, where's Mami? Mami was inside. Our apartment was five bedrooms-- three 00:26:00bedrooms, a big apartment, so it was a big hallway. So when I went in, I had to go through the hallway. And at the end was the living room. My mom was waiting for me there.

And when she saw me-- never forget-- she was so happy that I was alive. But she was so sad because I looked so skinny. I was like 130 pounds. I was so skinny.

But anyway, after I hugged my mom, I asked my sister, where's my clothes? 00:27:00Because I had some bought some clothes tailor-made over there. But when I came back, everything had changed. Those styles when out of business.

Playboy-- then there were bell-bottoms, high-heels. Everything had changed. But I told my sister, where's my clothes? And I went like this-- [RIPPING NOISES] And I took my shirt with everything, and I threw it out the window. My cousin got back-- he went to the airport to-- with my father, my other brother to pick me up. They already got back.

And he had getting back from Vietnam six months before me. We were-- So when he saw me, he hold me and said, primo, come over here. Relax. They don't 00:28:00understand. They don't understand. I do. And you do. But they don't. So it's going to be very hard to deal in the beginning with this, so take it easy, please. Yeah, because, it was like that. It was like that person that used to dress to kill, he was not longer wish to dress.

We used to have family parties. We were from big family. Our family, it's a unique family, because my mom's brother and sister married my father's sister and brother. And there were five marriages like that.

So we were Rivera-Cintron, Cintron-Rivera. We were all-- a lot of them live in 00:29:00New York City. We would always be in-- everybody in the family, they had like eight, 10 kids. So that's why, in the south Bronx, years back-- now, everybody's started leaving, though. We're so big family. I find I had to do a march in order to have my family.

So I started going, and I stopped because, I started getting into a lot of argument. I didn't like something, I used to jump. I used to-- and then I got involved with the issue of Puerto Rico at Vieque. 1971, I got with the issue of getting the marines out of Vieque. People, they told us that this issue just came the other day. Now, we were fighting heavy in 1971. Some of the people got killed. But the only thing, we don't have no social media.

They were controlling the information, the media hora. But I started getting 00:30:00involved. And then I get involved in the Puerto Rico Socialist Party. I became a communist, a socialist. There was something with my family, very Catholic, with churchgoing. I didn't want to go to church no more. I didn't want to hear about religions. So it was.

And I love my family. I loved my father, my mother, my brother. I know they give their life for me, and the reason that I am here today is because for them, because they were understanding. And they never abandoned me. Many of my friends, they didn't have that. My friends didn't have that, and they ended up dying in the street, because people don't understand.

The war don't finish when you come back. That's the beginning for the rest of your life . When the VCR came out, I used to put that as an example. I say, you 00:31:00know how our mind is that we went to war? Like a VCR. You put the movie, and then you rewind it, and you put it forward. And that's on your mind. Sometimes, one day, it's like rewinding. You live the whole thing again.

And I thank God that my family, the family that I had, that they never gave up on me. And I did a lot of nasty shit to them. But they never gave up on me. And the social justice, my fight for their freedom in Puerto Rico and social justice is what got me here today.

My daughter-- I was living in an apartment. My daughter was a month old. One 00:32:00day, I was working National Shoes. I was an assistant manager right next to where I used to live.

One morning, I heard bang, bang, bang, bang, bang on the door. City Marshal. Give me a dispossess. I never received no paper. Yeah, I was fighting them, because we are [INAUDIBLE]. But we are whole, and they were right. So I say, if you don't fix it, you don't fix up, I'm not going to pay rent. But I never received no paper. I didn't even know about housing, or back then. I didn't know.

Marshal came, and I got evicted, my family. That was right after the, [INAUDIBLE]. Right after, we took over Ostos, I remember-- right after Ostos And 00:33:00that's why the people that were in Osto, they had La Raza Unida. They funded this organization, Ramón Ilsa.

And a friend of mine told me about it. Mira, Ramón, the people from Osto, they got and funded this organization on 149. And they're going to be-- they're working with Bronx legal services and housing or all this. And that's why I got involved with housing. That was 1977, around there. And I never stopped. Claro, I never stopped organizing.

I went there for La Raza. We did a lot of organizing. There were a lot of [INAUDIBLE] strike from there. I got my first organizing job on an organization called Morris High Neighborhood Improvement Association, which they were all 00:34:00part of, the Northwest Bronx Committee Clergy Coalition.

And that's when the blackout came. When the blackout came, it was like, we were right after post-World War II. The area that I was working for the Belen in the Northwest Bronx, for the Belen, that was like a war zone, all of those abandoned buildings. And there was a blackout [INAUDIBLE] the store. He was like, wow.

So in there, we started organizing. And we found out that the city was taking over a lot of the buildings. The landlord was not paying their taxes. They used to foreclose. They'd collect in rent. So they started taking over this building.

So we started organizing. We got some people. We checked some of them in the college protest. We found-- we did a found an organization [INAUDIBLE] the city in rent coalition city-wide. We started organizing in the Bronx. There was a lawsuit. We did a lawsuit with Bronx Legal Services.

They used to call it Lauriano versus Catch. This lawsuit was to prevent the city, this tenant-- they were working on building city tenant. They did all the repairs. They did it. City was prepared to give that building back to the landlord.

They were like, 10%-- you put 10% of your taxes-- because they didn't want to become landlords-- 10% of your tax, and you take your building back. What the heck is 10% of the taxes you owe? You get that little money, and they just keep sprung the bill and collecting rent made no sense. You get your money back and more.

So anyway, so we started fighting. The rest is said. Then, we came out with a organization this to a union. Let's put this, all of this is being tried to put into a union, all of these city tenants. And we founded a union of city tenants. And we did a lot of heavy work. There, in office, in 35th Street-- it was a city-owned building by-- on the other side of Madison Square Garden, by 35th Street-- I think it's 758, something like that, that used to be my union, my 00:37:00union. That's where they've got their headquarters too.

Anyway, so we [INAUDIBLE]. We started organizing. We got-- the community management problem came, which city-- we organize the tenants. We wrote a Tenants Association. They collect their rent. To qualify-- Morris High was the sponsor. They have to pay at least-- 80% of the tenants be paying their rent-- city, they will fix all the apartments, everything-- electrical, plumbing, the apartment-- just beautiful. And then, they will train them to take over the building management and buy the apartment 250. We did that.

The building my sister lives, Pueblo en Marcha, the organization for 25 years-- 00:38:00Pueblo en Marcha would sponsor it, in the corner of 145h Street and Wallace, that building is owned by the tenants. Took them about 15 years. My sister, everybody from their church-- they're old in their 80s, 70s, but it took-- and that's all.

But anyway, the thing is that we did a lot of building. And then, it started falling into the city, because they want cash to get some programs, which were private management and tenants to take over. But we knew that behind all of that was for the private money for the state, because it was the first choice of the tenant. If tenants don't buy it, then they sell it to the private sector. So they will do anything not for the tenants to learn anything, so they could stay.

So after the city tenant, we did a lot, like I say, we organized our building. 00:39:00Our building become tenants-controlled. That was during the '80s. Go in the '90s-- you know, we're doing the move, improve. And then, cash-- and your cash came with all-- [INAUDIBLE] all of these people, they come out with this. [SIGHS] I used to call it a-- cash came with a program called J-51, J-51 to get tax abatement to the landlord and tax credit for 15 years, low-interest loan to fix the building. Provide section 84 for some of the tenants.

Then, we were working on-- then came out with capital improvement. There was a catch. Capital improvement-- lender used to go [INAUDIBLE] low-income loan to the city, do some cosmetic repairs to the front door, the mailboxes, in order the [INAUDIBLE] OK. And then, they used to ask 50% rent increase. It was a new way to displace tenants.

Everybody-- there was one big lender co-- one of the biggest real estate company lender, Diamond-- I think it was Diamond or Rubenstein, something like that. 00:41:00They stole our building. But they also, they used to own construction company. So they used to get all these loans from the city, do their own construction, and raise all of these tenant's rent. Because what happened-- city, nobody would challenge the entry. And in the beginning, it was hard, because let's put it this way, we didn't have too many. As a matter of fact, in the center, in Albany, we had one Puerto Rican. In the assembly, we didn't have too many.

Senate was controlled by Republicans always. Now, it is-- and then, they had those people that do [INAUDIBLE] and they have their own group. But they were in control. So it was be hard to modify this law. And they were land-oriented.

So we started fighting. Then, the student, the [INAUDIBLE] Committee Clergy Coalition-- because they were a big organization [INAUDIBLE] formula they organized in a better community than our, people were there, they were middle class. They were more organized in the suburb, because of the lack of education, the lack of information. So it was easy for them.

So when I learned a whole lot from them, I worked for the [INAUDIBLE] here. I did reinvestment, on community reinvestment, and on getting the banks to come back. And it was great. So during '80s '90s, what was the-- lot of they people, they went to organize, like I said, the housing org-- all of this program, and then came out all of these beautiful houses.

But I say, because this borough have key words throughout the year, a good base, community base, strong community base to continue. In the '70s, this was when we were fighting for everything. There was no stopping. We go 20 degrees. Marconi said, it wouldn't be necessary. But we were doing it.

In the '80s, [SIGHS] they started taking away the little things that we fought. Oh, don't take it away. In the '90s, they were taking everything away. And where were the people from the '70s? Then, they disappeared.

Only a few of us-- and a lot of people they, with me, would say, Max, we always 00:44:00respect because you never left. I had my family. I grew my family. And that's why I'm alone.

When I was doing the documentary with a student, they asked me, is there any sacrifice in organizing? Always. Sometimes, you organize, you sacrifice yourself, your family, because you get involved, emotionally involved with people's problem, with people-- and you forget about you. And I am. But I stood all the way to the end.

I ran for-- after the Sunday, I took over Pueblo en Marcha. Pueblo en Marcha was an organization that was founded by Bishop Roberto Gonzalez. He's the bishop in San Juan, Puerto Rico. He is a tremendous person.

In San Palles, my sister-- I have to tell you this, too, because this is something that for me was very important. It was a turning point. Because it brought me back to my family in time together.

I live my family, my daughter, my wife, we listen-- I listen to music, mucho salsa. It was at the end of the '70s, 1980s. And then, all of a sudden, bang, bang, bang, knock on door.

My wife comes back, opens the door. My sister, people from the church, from San Palles, and I thought something happened to my parents. I say, what happened? No, no, no, no, no. Because we need your help. We need you. We need-- we're coming to get you. We need you. I said, what? You need me?

Yes. We have a building blah, blah, blah. The planning board, the political, Ramón Vélez, all of these people, they want a building on 145th. They couldn't get it.

Fine, they controlled the planning board. They had the political. They were going to demolish the building. They came, they put those wood and that, you know? And they put around the building.

So they came and said, we need you. How can we put-- you've been doing this. And I-- I was so happy, because I was so apart from my family and the church in San Palle. And I feel so humble and proud when they came. And I say, guys, we've got 00:47:00to come with us. Because Father Roberto-- at the time, he was a Father-- Gonzalez is in the church. And I say, OK.

We went to San Palles. And they were in there. They were having a meeting planning what we're gonna do. I say, well, Father, we've got the parochial school. Can we get the kids out of the school and we start marching around the building? We let the people get in the-- he says, oh, we cannot use a school like this. No, can we do--

They said, well this is what we're going to do, Max, he asked me. I'm going to go with a group of people to HPT to talk to the commissioner. At that time, it was [INAUDIBLE]. And I want you to take a group and go to the planning board, community planning board. Because these people didn't know anything about planning. You know, I know you've been involved, blah, blah, blah. And I said, OK.

That was my enemy, claro, Ramón Vélez, we were fighting. We were the lefty. They were the right. And we were fighting them in here, man, Puerto Rican against Puerto Rican, the left against the right, because they were controlling everything. And if you weren't a part of that, you wouldn't getting nothing in this community.

So I said, OK. So we went to planning board. At that time, they were in 381. Go in there-- OK, wait over here. What a surprise. What a surprise. When I'm waiting there, I heard a voice say, Maxi, what happened? It was Sobeida Cruz.

Sobeida Cruz was a friend of mine, was married to a friend of mine. Grew up together. And we used to go camping. When I came out of Vietnam, '71-- before I got involved, I used to go camping. We used to go to [INAUDIBLE] New York.

Oh, I love camping. We used to go in there right-- [INAUDIBLE] so basically, I didn't know nothing really about planning. [INAUDIBLE] really involved with the structure. I was more in the street and political and now, we didn't vote. We didn't believe in voting.

So Sobeida happened to be-- she was a more political inclined, involved with the democratic machine. So she was the district manager. To be the district manager of planning board-- I'm talking about probably 1979. Do you know how many district managers the planning board had signed then?

Had like one, two?

Three.

[LAUGHS]

The one that there. After, someone [INAUDIBLE] Cruz, the related to-- you know, Puerto Rico, that's what it's like-- Ramo Cruz. And then came this one.

Cedric?

No, no, no. What came was Bobby Crespo. Bobby Crespo, he was in the committee school board with me. And Bobby Crespo, there was billions of homeless by [INAUDIBLE] in that area. They were going to be so homeless. And the community, the homeowners there-- you know where I used to live by-- over on [INAUDIBLE].

Like on the other side of [INAUDIBLE].

They were planning to build some shelters in the community. There's some private houses in there. There's a lot of shops, but there's a lot of priv-- so the people in the church, they just started complain, blah, blah, blah. When we came on down, planning board, like always, they denying, in doubt.

Bobby Crespo getting a lot of support. When they came out, [INAUDIBLE] on this 00:51:00favor came out with a letter, a copy of the letter. And the planning, we didn't know. No support.

At that time, [INAUDIBLE] the school board, Bobby Crespo was one member. Carmen Arroyo, before she was the assembly-- anyway, we had two. I was like the swing vote. I went with other people. We have-- I think we have four votes. There was somebody miss- I think there was a person missing. So we will form four.

We were fighting to renew the superintendent's contract. Bobby was against it. 00:52:00And some other people, they were aligned with Arroyo, because they want somebody to be truthful to them.

And yeah, we were 4-4, came back to the public hearing to vote. And I say, man-- Bobby-- you know Bobby Crystal?

No, I don't know him.

He's a big guy. He used to be a correctional officer, a tall guy, a big guy, a guy. We were sitting there. You know Jody Rodriguez?

Mm-mm.

The chairman of the planning board?

Mm-mm.

In the last 40 years, we've had two chairmen. We had the incinerator, the one that was Chairman, [INAUDIBLE], we made him resign because the same thing, he gave [INAUDIBLE] letter support to open the incinerator that we fought to close 00:53:00it down. And then, this guy gave letter support which nobody-- he would say nobody knew to the shelter.

So when we were on the planning board-- the community school board voting for the superintendent, some Georgie Rodriquez-- Georgie's about 84 or 85 years old. I don't know what Stewart is doing in the planning board. Georgie asked him-- wow. Georgie came. Bobby was sitting here, right. This is our table. But Georgie came. And he stood the whole meeting, standing up behind him.

Now, how they control their people, say, I'm going to see how you vote. If you vote against it, you're gonna be-- [INAUDIBLE] And when he came, he sang to 00:54:00both. He made his pitch so beautiful, how great Bobby-- the other-- the superintendent. His [INAUDIBLE] was grateful, too. Crespo was the superintendent. This was a guy they were fighting for not to renew his contract.

All of a sudden, he was saying some very good thing that he voted for him because Georgie was--

Standing behind him.

That's what they do. I get you a job. You don't do what I do, I'll get you funding. You don't do what I will do, what we say. And that's what we mean then with that one. So anyway, going-- right, so-- ay, ay, ay.

You were talking about your sister asking you for help and how you hadn't been involved in the planning board type stuff before-- before that.

So after that, we got involved in the planning board. I remember one of the-- 00:55:00there was a [INAUDIBLE].

[SPEAKING SPANISH] the juvenile detention center right here.

Uh-huh.

1980, it was. I was in a school board. I ranned three years. Then, I decided not to run for re-election. So they come up with [INAUDIBLE] in there. So I took over the committee nobody wanted.

So well, I have committee to stop us [INAUDIBLE]. How are you gonna build a-- do you want a detention right in 149th where the tenement commercials run from the park across from the school? But nothing was done.

[INAUDIBLE] came. I left the school board. I re-ran for the right.

[INAUDIBLE] David Rosado, minding all the same thing, Ramon Ve-- the whole political structure became the assemblies. Serrano-- that's why when Joe Serrano became the congressman, David Rosado became the assemblyman. The guy, when I was running for the school board, they used to say to buy coffee. He was a coffee, and they made him the district leader.

Pero he will make no decision. He had too many decision with Ramon Velez there, right? So they-- when Serrano left, They gave him the endorsement. And he got elected.

I come back to-- I returned to the school board. Three years after, I come back. 00:57:00I say, hey, I'm going to run again. I got elected. Here comes David Rosado talking about they were building already the church. Over my dead body.

[GRUMBLING]

Man, you were the one respon-- I wouldn't do it. I didn't care. You were responsible. You elected officials of the community let us down. You guys were responsible after your dead bodies.

What are you doing [INAUDIBLE] after your dead body? It was already approved. They're building it. He was approved at that time we had the board estimate. It was approved by the planning board, by the city planning, and a board estimate.

So it's a done deal. They're building it. So don't go and-- like people don't know. They're not the political savvy or educated was going on. No, you was telling everybody that you were going to fight for it. Oye, right? It was there.

Then, I was over fighting. The one time, I had $100,000. After the-- OK. [INAUDIBLE]. We got involved. All those progressive people we went behind Lincoln, lot of elected official, someone then that went with cash. I mean, they took cash for-- we won.

So we had a good connection-- a commissioner for committee development agency, a friend of ours. Unfortunately, she was the one, and I feel so bad for having [INAUDIBLE] all my life. She was the one, the lady that was in charge of the-- 00:59:00with the children's services. Ay, ay, ay, what do you call the agency? Children abuse.

Oh, the DCS, Department of--

DCS.

Yeah.

She became the-- she was aligned-- you know when the [INAUDIBLE] and they killed the girl that-- [INAUDIBLE]?

Yeah.

For Larrys. I knew Gladia Hector-- Hector is a professor-- and her husband, they've been great. Gladia used to work legal services. Gladia then, it was a fight. And fortunately, she took that position. That position-- you cannot control [INAUDIBLE]. It's always been-- and then they do a whole restructure. Anyway.

So Gladia she became the commissioner-- she became the YCD the community development agency. They gived out a grant for a community agency. She became the commissioner. So we were able, at Pueblo en Marcha, to get some money for 01:00:00housing, housing organizing, all that.

So there came some crisis, [INAUDIBLE] something. So they had to do budget cut. So the city was asking for every agency to cut 10% of their budget. All right.

So she instructed all the areas policy board-- they're the ones that recommended who you get funding to the community development agency. When they do the proposal, they-- they're the ones who select what is the issue that they give the more funding-- housing, youth.

Anyway, so when they got the money, I mean they asked for the cut-- community area policy board controlled, again, by the politicians. They control Lincoln 01:01:00Hospital Board and plenty more. Area Policy Board, everything that had to do with money, everything that-- like they had the people in there. You would never get into know all those, even the planning board.

Area Policy Board mentioned the commissioner instructed to cut every agency 10% out of the budget. So they met. They come up with a solution. Let's cut Pueblo en Marcha totally, my organization, $100,000. Let's cut Pueblo en Marcha. And we don't have to cut the other organizations.

I received a call from the commissioner's office. Maxi, do you know there's 01:02:00going to be a public hearing in Lincoln Hospital? And they had to do it public, because they made a recommendation to cut Pueblo en Marcha totally and cut the other organizations. She knew what was there behind, right?

And I just talked to them that they're going to have to have a public hearing and invite every organization and have everybody. So I'm giving you a heads-up. Giving you a heads-up. I said OK.

So I organized the church. I organized people doing-- they want to. They're coming-- Arroyo with the chairman, all of the people from the sector. They bought it! Took over the floor, and I give a speech about blah, blah, blah, the work that we're doing [INAUDIBLE].

Anyway, they passed a resolution that they were going to work together to get us 01:03:00some funding. Well, they figured that maybe they'd forget about us. And we say, no. So my source in downtown told me, sue me.

I recall-- I forgot what-- Article 17, the administrative procedure-- they didn't go through the administrative procedure, blah, blah. So I went to my friend, [INAUDIBLE] an attorney with-- and he did Article 16. But we never got into the court, because she instructed, commissioner, 10% everybody. So now, they want Pueblo en Marcha out.

So they couldn't do it. David Rosado become the city council. City council calls-- controls the funding. Area Policy Board, the city council who the 01:04:00organization that wants it, he goes, and this is what we're going to do. And they do it. David Rosado becomes city council, open for proposal. Funding comes.

Pueblo en Marcha zero funding from the $110,000. Hmm. But we never closed, see? The money used to get paid, Pueblo en Marcha put it back to pay somebody. I work in the post office. Money is never-- as long as I got my books, I got my music, I don't need nothing else.

You know, I got my apartment. At night, I want to get high level. I'm not into it, none of that. So for me, people say, oh, you must be making a lot of money, huh? You [INAUDIBLE]?

I says, so what? I don't do that for one. I'm doing it for you know. It's under-- so we never closed.

One day, oh, we were fighting the rent control, the rent station law. Volunteer. No, I was getting $20,000 from the board president. It was silent. Because that money was given to when the priest, the bishop. He said they used to give Pueblo en Marcha, when I took over the club. I told the Bishop, no. I want to run Pueblo en Marcha because working in the post office doesn't satisfy me. And I had to something. That's why I took over Puebla.

He says, I'm gonna call Serrano. He was the assemblyman at the time. So he could call Simon with the board president, because he used to allocate $20,000. And 01:06:00they gave it to him. With that $20,000, I have one person to mind. And then everybody-- when we were organizing for to go to Albany at that time already, the person who used to be an assembly became a councilman, right? He became a senator.

I never did this. This is immoral. This guys is immoral. Assemblyman, councilman, is a senator. David Rosado, remember that name. That building over there, that building right next to the garden, they named it after him. I can't believe it. You go, take a look.

Do you think that that machine, the democratic machine is stronger in the Bronx than in other parts of New York City?

They are much stronger. And I tell you why. Dynasty. Before, I think they're 01:07:00used to running the-- I think they're just behind just the running the machine. But Diaz, Arroyo, they-- I hope they get so. I can't tell. That's another story.

I'm not a politician, but I'm gonna tell you why I did it. Diaz to the churches say-- they were very smart. Ramon Velez, the Father all this, for the godfather [INAUDIBLE] Serrano, Arroyo, the godfather of these politicians made a strong base who were meant to service. What was the standard housing? A lot of 01:08:00programs. And he used to-- he used to hire his people. You have to be loyal to him.

Lincoln Hospital, took over Lincoln Hospital [INAUDIBLE] service so many million dollars. Nothing happening here without going to Ramon Velez. And we got him out. In a way, he [INAUDIBLE]. Gerena Valentin-- them two names, like Gerena Valentin, Gilberto Gerena Valentin.

When I was a kid, you would never say you, right? My brother always buyed the newspaper, The Diario, Daily News. Mom buys the Daily News, the other one that-- So what if I used to buy The Post? And that was my best because of sport. Now, I hate it.

Anyway, The Diario-- I used to read in The Diario this man doing hunger strike, 01:09:00all fighting for the Puerto Rican community. We were on strike demanding this, police. He won the champion in those days, in the area of gang police brutality. It was Gerena Valentin.

During the old Spanish takeover, everybody was involved. This was the most-- Gerena, Ramon Velez, Arro-- everybody was involved one-- into one. That's what we'd say-- [INAUDIBLE]. That they got to-- the police went in. They then made their arrest and all of that and were watching 261st. But this man next to me, he grabbed my hand. We were marching like this, hand in hand. We closed the whole 149th St. marching. No traffic. We stopped.

When I looked, it was Gerena Valentin. And I said, Gerena Valentin. For me, it was like something big. And I said, Gerena, do you know how many years I've been reading about you, about blah, blah? And he hugged me, and we became friends.

Now, Gerena Valentin, again, he was a socialist. He was a-- he was the true founder of the Puerto Rican parade. He was there before Ramon Velez. He was fighting here the people, because he was not political savvy, like Velez. But he could-- oh, in English, Spanish, Gerena Valentin-- when Gerena Valentin to talk, people used to listen, because he's just so beautiful.

And Ramon Velez too. He was an educated person. And they ran against each other. 01:11:00And that was exactly-- that was right when we were-- 1976 when we were still in the takeover. Then, the takeover was finished. And then, there was a march. It was around this time. They finished. The police went and marched.

So in the summer, Gerena Valentin was running against Ramon Velez. Ramon Velez, as I said, he would control that organization. If something happened in there, I understand that we will let it hurt. But our godmother-- that's another name that you have to earn-- Evelina Antonetty. She was our godmother.

She endorsed Ramon Velez, but she was running are [INAUDIBLE]. This is an 01:12:00organization of parents of demanding education from back in the day is powerful. A lot of progressives that we were-- for us, she used to give in the office to make copies. We didn't have no way to make copies.

We used to-- we would go eat. They had a cafeteria. And I'm gonna show you-- I'm gonna give you some time that you're gonna have to see all of us in the '80s-- the ghetto brother, the [INAUDIBLE], all the gang. All of this gang, they used to come there, the ghetto brother.

And there was the houses. The gang members, they became organizers. Same with the musicians. she endosed Ramon Velez.

Q: What were they running for?

RIVERA: Councilman.

Q: For councilman.

RIVERA: City councilman. [INAUDIBLE]

Q: Where was her office? Do you remember?

RIVERA: Their office was in 381. No, no, This is-- his office was where-- that's what he had like-- he had a headquarters too, the [INAUDIBLE]. It was by Avenue St. Joe's, right-- 149th, for us before. Somewhere around there. All that changed over in there. That was his office.

And there was a big fight. Two people got killed. It was a war. They, Ramon 01:14:00Velez's group, Gerena Valentin's group, they used to climb, fistfight.

We were, at that time, developing La Raza Unida. A lot of my friends, they was with Gerena Valentin. I didn't participate in the campaign, because we were developing-- I wanted to be an organ-- you know, politics was not. Sure, I wanted Gerena to go. Gerena was very progressive. And they not-- Gerena Valentina on the ballot. There. That's when I started-- anyway-- about the board election.

Anyway, the thing is that they not got on the ballot. Now, Gerena is fighting to get written in the ballot. They never thought that Gerena was going to get back on the ballot. Ramon Velez got a PR, took away before the election, weekend before election, because they thought he was out of the ballot.

These people got no money. They have this all men law-- and this men for Lincoln lawyer-- and all men. Nobody thought I had a shot to win this case in the appellate court in Albany. He took the case all the way.

A night before the election, they came out with their ruling. He's back on the ballot. Ramon Velez's people thought that they had it. So Thought they were like, no.

Gerena Valentin's people, they never let their guard down. Then, we will prepare something [INAUDIBLE], [CLAP] we're gonna hit the street. That's why I said, I'm going with you guys, [INAUDIBLE]. And the ruling. They called Ramon Velez in Puerto Rico. You better get your ass over here. He's back.

He beat him. He beat Ramon Velez. That was the oral surgeon. But they made his 01:16:00life miserable in the city council.

He wouldn't get no funding. And we will have to fight because we're not part of the mainstream. They don't have that many city councilmen Puerto Rican right now, in those days.

So in the re-election, they all ganged up against him. They stole the election. He lost by three other votes. They stole the election-- board election. And they all-- what they do in election day, they took the elec--we didn't won.

And then, Ramon Velez-- so Ramon Velez, it was now, going going back-- Diaz's father, the devil, another reverend, he was always a conservative republican. He 01:17:00used to endorse republican, Republican, republican. And then, he got arrested. Couldn't get--

His father came. I don't know if you heard about Espada. Now, Espada became a trend. They have money. They have the Sunview Center they would give money. Some were aligned-- I was more aligned with the son. I really didn't take the father, Pedro, the one being [INAUDIBLE].

And the Espada came and started making noise. David Rosado's city council seat-- 01:18:00he went to the Senate. Federico Perez another old-timer, becomes the city council. Espada Jr. ran for city council. Espara senior ran for Senator. And they both beat-- they beat Rosado, and they beat Federico. And I like Federico. Fede's a nice guy, Puerto Rican, 79 years old, beautiful.

There were a lot of people with Ramon Velez that were real people, just because they were-- and they were educated, world people. So anyway, they beat him. So that's why they had to change. Jose Rivera, my brother, Jose Rivera from-- that 01:19:00we were fighting from the trenches-- Jose Rivera was-- his mentor Gerena Valentin. Assemblyman José Rivera [INAUDIBLE]. Gerena Valentin was his mentor.

So anyway, Jose Rivera becomes chairman [INAUDIBLE]. As a matter of fact, when Jose Rivera ran for assemblyman 1982, around there, '82, it was in the Photos section. At that time, Photo section was turning into a lot of Hispanics more moving. The guy that was-- it was not a-- he was a-- he was a nice guy, part of the machine buy-- a very decent guy. He's [INAUDIBLE] Walsch-- Walsh, something like that. I don't know even-- I [INAUDIBLE], you know? He was the assemblyman.

But they already-- the composition had changed in there. So Jose Rivera runs. They're attacking like crazy. All of us progressives were with Jose. I don't 01:20:00really know, you know Howie Jordan from WBAI? He runs the [INAUDIBLE] hour?

Q: Yeah. Yeah.

RIVERA: [INAUDIBLE]. I was a teacher, he said, outside a lawyer. He was with us those days, and he was with Jose, very close. And we thought getting Jose elected would open the door for us, for progressives, to say, get in-- excuse me-- on the scebne. You know? It didn't happen.

Jose became one of the regular. His son became a city council. His daughter becomes a state assembly. And he was the assembly leader. He comes with-- and me and Jose, we have varo. We have varo. We were like-- we were from the old days. And we were arguing all the time. The only thing that I give a lot of respect to Jose was that he would doing with Vieques in Puerto Rico and the Puerto Rican 01:21:00prisoners. But over here, I told-- I-- he becomes regular.

So Diaz becomes more powerful. I blame Jose Rivera for the Diaz, for the Arroyo. Instead of supporting progressive people that he knew, that he knew from the get, that he knew for years, instead he was supporting-- now, Diaz's father become a Democrat, they guy who was always supporting Republicans. They put him to run against Espada. And they put Serrano's son to run against the other 01:22:00Espada. And they won.

Yeah.

They won. So for that, there was an opening from the assembly. They put Diaz on. He came. And then, there was-- in 1990, there was a red line in the new city council. His father becomes city councilman. So now, you've got the two of them.

Then, there's three leaders, and then they charged. And then, they started running low. And now, they control the whole admin. And they control the whole politics. And I don't know how people are that naive.

The Arroyo, they are about to become, because the lady-- I know she's running for reelection. But Carmen, I've got a lot of respect for Carmen for when I ran-- and I told her on the school board when I got elected, and I voted against 01:23:00her to become the president, I told her, I got respect for you, but it's time for you to leave. You people have been around. They've got their hand in the cookie jar.

Well, so, the party, yes, the machine is more stronger, because they've got more bases. Before, they would depend on Freeman, the white political machine-- no, because again, the population, they control. The Diaz-- the perception that the father just left, one of them-- one of the group got it. They bought pres-- the chair-- the president of the democratic machine, the assemblyman Crespo is one of Diaz's students.

They end up with Carmen Arroyo's position too, unless they get somebody to run, somebody progressive. But Carmen's about to go. I don't know if people still-- but going back, the Diazes did a base with the churches. Arroyo, what happened, they did a base with a senior building. They did a lot of senior building.

Arsenio, the lawyer, you get him to set an appointment. I don't care how bad you you. You come with the most corrupted. I told her I was going to beat her, and I was going to get out of the vote from the seniors. I was wrong.

She came up with a-- they, like, they were her picture.

Q: A coffee cup.

RIVERA: We went out for a thing outside [INAUDIBLE]. I beat her in [INAUDIBLE]. All of a sudden, she goes over up there and giving to all of those old ladies. Oh Carmen, oh Carlos, I can't compete with this lady. I've got to admit. I told my sister with the seniors, I can't compete with her, because they love her. She 01:25:00got it for years.

And she-- Mother's Day [INAUDIBLE], oh, we were gonna have a party for the seniors. By Lincoln Court, we're gonna have a lechón, a porro. And that's why they got that base. And those are the ones that-- because I beat her. I beat her in [INAUDIBLE], and I beat her our of the seniors.

And then, when I told her I was going to get a [INAUDIBLE] of her, it was by Lincoln Court on 38th. Guess what they did? People that vote in there, they're moving to vote that school, 162, by the highway.

Yeah. By St. Jerome.

And everybody else voting there. They did it on purpose. But not only that-- the night before, I got a call. Maxi, you've got to get over here. And during the 01:26:00day, I'm in the board election, and I see Carmen talking with people on the board election. I though, what the heck's she doing here?

So they were taking-- they had this ambulance taking the seniors to vote an absentee ballot. That was illegal. Absentee ballot was the week before. It was deadline. And then, during the day, they was taking the seniors in those ambulance to take to vote.

I mean, we were-- Harry and I-- that's why I love Harry-- we went to a court, him and I pro se, with no lawyer. And we get to the over here, to the court that had the-- we were one day late. The matter of, say, our case-- blah, blah, blah, 01:27:00blah, blah, blah, blah-- but the statute of limitations was over.

So we went to the court downtown. And Don-- I don't know if you know Don.

Q: Yes.

RIVERA: He's a lawyer.

Q: Yeah.

RIVERA: Yeah. I'll say--

Q: Donald Dunn?

RIVERA: Donald Dunn. I say, Harry, we've got a problem. Why? It was a Saturday-- Friday-- Saturday-- Tuesday was the case.

I say, I can't do that. I can't do it. He said, why? I'm deaf, because my left ear don't fight. And I've got to listen. I have to talk to him, and I'm nervous.

[MUMBLING]

And the housing court. This is a [INAUDIBLE].

And I'm deaf. I don't know how we're gonna do, because I'm not going to be able to listen to him, the one on this side. Yeah, we're gonna need a lawyer now. 01:28:00Nobody wanted to do a case. I don't know what don came for.

All I know is I got a call from Harry, I got a lawyer. You do? Yeah. Come by. Come by Blue Park.

Went to Blue Park and there, I met Don. And he was good, really a good presentation. And I said, see, this is the reason people don't want politics in here. None of them have no lawyers, their resources. The board election-- so you know, there had to be a further investigation they're in cahoots with the machine. The people that worked, the inspector, they work in there to make her-- if they're going to vote for me, they're going to vote for-- against their candidate. They will damage the ballot.

No, no, no, no, don't do it in here. Do it in here. Oh, I just want to vote for one candidate. No, no, you cannot do that.

My brother, they messed up his-- when he voted, right? So a lot of people don't run. And I understand money-wise. It takes a lot of money. They need a good lawyer.

Me? Only have-- well, we have our complete $15,000. I got free legal, because we had a lot of friends that are lawyers. So my friend Pedro Garcia wanted to represent me. We got in the ballot. It took-- and now, I lost by less than 300 votes.

They, on all of those-- they pay everybody. We just got volunteers to call the election. They pay everybody to work on the election. They was paying over 01:30:00$100,000. A lot of these people, they run against, and then, they'll get them thrown out of the ballot after all that work. Because you know, a lawyer costs like $20,000. Then you get somebody that says, well, let me do it for you.

And that's what's our problem. People don't get together. So the only way we're going to stop this madness is by getting a federal suit. We challenge. Way into election, right away going to federal court right away. But fortunately, people don't like to get involved. But they fined the community-- well, I don't buy-- I don't get involved with politics.

I'm going to mention, you let the same people roll your ship in there for 30 years. She's 85 years old. I mean, and it's not about her age. I don't discriminate. She's a little bit got Parkinson's. When she talks, she goes.

And she stayed for too-- she did a lot of good things. I respect Carmen for her thing that she did when she came from Puerto Rico with six, seven kids, living on welfare. She started organizing the people on public [INAUDIBLE] You know, she did a lot of good things.

But her time to grieve, not to give it to her son, you know. So the politics is one that the people, instead of making consensus, there's only progressive candidate. But also, the spirit of Jose Rivera ni Roberto Ramirez who also became the-- after Jose, he became the chairman. Because they were part of the mission.

A guy that I knew, he was a student. He came from Puerto Rico, [INAUDIBLE] went 01:32:00to college. Became a lawyer. He's rich. He ran this business with Luis Miranda that wrote all of the petitions for all the elected officials in the city. They made the petition. They do a consultant. They became rich.

Like the petition to get someone on the ballot? Yeah.

They're the ones that visit. So all of these people that were supposed to-- that's why people are afraid.

One of the things I'm interested in is whether the political culture is different in different neighborhoods within the South Bronx in Hunts Point or in Mott Haven or in Melrose. What do you think about that, both in terms of electoral politics but also more grassroots politics?

I think that the grassroots in the South Bronx and Motts Point is much stronger than Melrose. See, all these beautiful not only just people that came from our of the neighborhood who probably let her. And then you live in a beautiful place, you don't organizing. It don't mean nothing.

See, I used to work for [INAUDIBLE]. And I was a chairman 14 years in another organization that-- and we did-- [INAUDIBLE] two buildings, the [INAUDIBLE]. And what we did, we didn't become the management. We had somebody else to manage the building.

What we did when we opened the building, we organized the tenants. We did a meeting with the tenants. We spoke to them about the importance about going to the building, organizing a tenants association. If you heard there were a lot kids, also a youth organization.

And we were able to do that. We got a lot of the kids to join-- to do a baseball team. Literally, they used to play here. So they can take pride. This is ours. Here goes nada. That just from over here. No, this is ours. We're going to be here for a long time.

A lot of these buildings-- I don't know if they know because I'm overdoing that. They were not doing that. A lot of these people-- like I said, these homeowners-- and it's so sad. Because the majority of the homeowners here, like-- they're Hispanic and money hungry. Money hungry.

And I told them, this was not for you to make you rich. I said, these houses [INAUDIBLE] it's already went up in prices. Three family $1 million a few years. 01:35:00You don't need to raise your rent the way you're doing so. So across the street, a big building, beautiful building-- come in the summer time. My friend that-- the garden that I don't know, he owned the garden of the block.

Latinos Unidos?

Uh-huh. Right? Right there. Those people in the building in the summertime hang out on the sidewalk. Everybody brings chairs. Everybody-- they have pool there. You can't even walk through there. But you ask them about organizing, ah, no.

[GRUMBLING]

So I guess because of the new development, I was still contracting more. People are not organized like in the South Bronx. I mean, this is the whole South Bronx. I'm talking about Mott Haven.

Also, Mott Haven, I seen that you have more people in there, progressive people moving in and fighting for the community and [INAUDIBLE] I see a little different-- and I think it's gonna be better with the [INAUDIBLE] Unite taking possession. Moncho and my brother-- my brother--

Q: Michael?

RIVERA: Michael and all-- I know Harry, now, is gone. He went to Brooklyn. But I see a light.

Q: What was the political culture like in Mott Haven in like the 1980s or '90s?

[SIGHS]

In the '90s, again-- in the political was like, we were trying to save what 01:37:00little things that we have in the '80s and the '90s. It was controlled by the machine. People would not get involved.

Right now, there's more consciousness. I can be more education than-- like I said, once our generation-- my generation [INAUDIBLE] everything was right. In the '90s, we were just saying, don't take it away. Please, don't take it away. Like I was saying, we were demanded in the '70s, trying to keep it in the '80s. And in the '90s, we're saying, don't take it away. Because they was taking everything away and making all of these programs, then the profiling for [INAUDIBLE] because people were not organized.

When they were going to close the post office, they were like, oh, it was Staten 01:38:00Island? They said, no, go to the Bronx. Bronx people don't fight. But that's changing, little by little. It's changing.

I see more people little by little, more youth not as, which I want to see it. But it's changing. And there's more--also more information out there, more organizations that they really-- they're not depending on funding from the city. So they don't have to do whatever. And they're doing-- they do a pretty good job.

So I see a little-- maybe my generation-- I don't know, my time, but I see. One of the things that I see is the hub on Tell Avenue. I think with time, that's going to be gone. We're gonna lose all those stores, the little stores. We're 01:39:00losing moms and pops.

So now, what do we get now? No more grocery store-- one do you call those on the corner? They've got one here, one at the other corner making sandwiches.

Q: Bodega?

RIVERA: Deli. Deli.

Q: Oh, a deli. Oh.

RIVERA: Everywhere is a whole new deli. Fried food. All these-- But with time, we're gonna have no history. That's why it's so important what you guys are doing. Because a school changes the names. Lola de Tio, right across from [INAUDIBLE] on Morris Park-- Lola de Tio got to have three names. They're no longer with time.

For 140th-- across from St. Mary, PS 27 and Elina Antonetty. I fought to name that when I was on the school board. And Mother Hayes on the hill, I fought that 01:40:00one too, to name Mother Hayes. When they had the meeting for the year. Oh, I'm going to go to my old school.

Martha Rodriguez and I, we were on the committee, and we got to name both. But Lola de Tio was a lady in Puerto Rico. She was a poet. She was a writer. She was a [INAUDIBLE], an activist. That gives us some history for our people.

Clark 149, my school, 145th Wallace. That's no longer Clark. We've got like three different charter schools, different names. So when people in-- the alum from Clark, people there in favor from Clark, from Diaz, we never-- we don't got no Clark. Alfred Smith.

That's what gave me the idea of running against Carmen Arroyo. Why did I ran? 01:41:00I'm gonna tell you. When I was in junior high school, I wanted to go to academic school. The [INAUDIBLE] council, they don't want me to go to academic school. Probably I want to go to-- what do you call it-- like Alfred Smith, not industrial--

Q: Vocational?

RIVERA: Huh?

Q: Vocational?

Vocational high school. [INAUDIBLE] why? Oh, I wanna go to-- I want to be a lawyer. I want to be an engineer. I always wanted to be a lawyer. I don't know. That's why-- right, so. I went to DeWitt Clinton. But that was the thing. They wouldn't say, oh, you better let him become a plumber, electrician, or some-- that, right?

Now, in the last few years, the demand for electrician, plumber, the green work, all of this work there to be done, they need vocational people. But now, they want to--they close it down. The close it and send it out. Never. Now that there are jobs out there-- paying good jobs, they closed the school.

[INAUDIBLE] we went to a hearing [INAUDIBLE] South Bronx Community Congress. We were in a group. And Carmen Arroyo's os there for her daughter. She was [GRUMBLING] [FAKE LAUGHTER] That was the best thing ever.

[GRUMBLING]

A week later-- a day later, we were in the paper. Carmen Arroyo and the 01:43:00daughter, Maria del Carmen, made a deal when they close, they take all those programs-- not the whole school-- they want to take the main program out. They were going to take a floor for the charter school.

So I'm already mad. And I say, hey, Maria de Carmen, she gave me $50,000 for Pueblo en Marcha. Carmen gave me $20,000, but I don't care.

Like I said, that money is being used to the community. When I go to a meeting, I'll say, and this is impossible for a grant for the assemblywoman. I let the people know. I say, we make you look good, because we're doing the work. So that happened.

About 2011, homeowners 144, over there where I grew up, and still some people in 01:44:00there, when I was a teenager, they still lived there from the old houses, came to Pueblo looking for me. Maxi, [SPANISH] Marcelino looking for you and these people. I said, what happened? Oh, they said, Maxi, bad news. What's going on?

You know that lot next door, the empty lot where we live? Oh, they're going to do a construction on a building in there, 60 apartments for 25 years old people mental-- mental health problems, blah, blah, blah. Their departmental head of this building, blah, blah, blah.

Oh shoot. ¿De verdad? We've be fighting in the subgroup to preserve this. Our house is going in-- All of a sudden you want to bring this in? Why can't you just take it somewhere else, another community? We're saturated.

And these people-- so we organized, and they [GRUMBLING] research, all the programming. [INAUDIBLE] research, all the programs, different programs in our community. All-- wow. So called for a meeting. Had a meeting.

I told them, I said, what happened in your investigation? Well, the assemblywoman's office, they didn't know nothing about it. [INAUDIBLE] and got nothing know about it. The board, you know, nobody knows shit. They tell her this comes from the state.

I mean, this is not malice. I know part of this is her territory. But she probably knows about, but this is not her-- this is not a city. It's a state. So it has to do with Serrano and Arroyo and the planning boards.

[GRUMBLING]

With a planning board, [INAUDIBLE] of the planning board. People are going to do a presentation. Carmen is sitting there. She saw me. She gives me a hug, OK.

The person who was doing the presentation was looking at a man. But I know this man. White guy, right? Mm. Yeah. They go-- the lady that working with Pueblo with me with some people at the South Bronx Congress. So I was one of the speakers. When the men-- they were doing when they spoke in their accent, who did he-- he said, we spoke with an elected official. We have sent letters certified with [INAUDIBLE]. We spoke-- so do you spoke-- do you have any 01:47:00communication with community groups?

Yes, we spoke to the subgroup committee in Congress. I'm subgroup community congress member. I'm one of the founders. [INAUDIBLE] was looking at me. Carmen, Santiago, were looking at me. And the homeowners are looking at me like, oh, you're going to [INAUDIBLE].

So when it's my turn to speak, I say, excuse me, who do you spoke to the South Bronx community congress? Did you have a meeting with Carmen in Congress? Who did you talk to? Who did you have a discussion? Who give you a recommendation

[GRUMBLING]?

Because I'm co-founder of South Bronx Community Congress. I'm a member. I go to 01:48:00all the meetings. I co-chair the meetings. So I never-- then, he say that his wife is a member of South Bronx Congress, Reverend Lady Alebrón Rivera, the reverend that was in the church in here.

And I say, wow. I said wait a minute. I knew that I know you. Now, that I mention it, I saw you in a few activities that we had, social activity. But I never seen you in all of the meetings.

And your wife is a lady that has the most respect and love for a Reverend. Lebrón Rivera, she's a true fighter. And I don't think that she gave you the approval, because it was never a discussion with us. And it was a lie. So 01:49:00Carmen, one day--

[GRUMBLING]

But anyway, we went to a meeting. We go to Albany. [INAUDIBLE] there Mexican. You go to Albany, Carmen's going to drive you over there or a staff member of one of the the representatives from the homeowners, the president, Dr.-- forgot his name [INAUDIBLE]. I said OK, I'll go to Albany.

Went to Albany. We met with the Commissioner of mental health. And they wanted. This lady took us in and showed us what all in the programs and saturation and why we would-- It's not-- And I told him my position, I'm not getting mental, because I've got family [INAUDIBLE] people in my family who suffer, and this is not about them. It's about the location.

So anyway, they were-- they wouldn't fucking listen. They didn't want to listen. 01:50:00I forgot. Anyway, they wouldn't listen. Ah, a few minutes. They made her look like nothing. She was nobody. Oh no, we said, copy the letter. Carmen Arroyo, all of them, they knew about it. And she making believe that she's fighting it.

When that happened, I said, you know what? I don't have that much time. I'm running. What you meaning running, the track? No, I'm running against Carmen.

Somebody's got to do it, man, to stop this shit. Man, she lied to you, look. She lied to all of us. She's saying to go. And that's why I ran.

Q: That's a really good story. If you don't mind, I want to go back and ask some follow-up questions about some of the earlier stuff.

RIVERA: [INAUDIBLE] I've been talking, and--

Q: No, no, this is good. Even like the way back. So you're a young teenager in Puerto Rico.

RIVERA: 13.

Q: How did your parents talk to you about moving to the Bronx? Do you remember how they explained it?

RIVERA: No. You see what happened is, when we lived in Puerto Rico, family-- if they're going to school, they-- so there were not too many opportunities, jobs. So they finished high school. I come from a family of eight. So I'm the youngest brother and the second younger. My sister and them-- so they were older. for? My sister. When she graduated from high school-- my father used to come and work in 01:52:00the farm.

So my sister graduated from high school. Some of the friends that were here, they sent for her. And she got a job offer here. She got a job. She sent for my older brother. Then, my older brother came. And they were trying to send my other brother who finished high school. And they sent for him, so they all got together.

My sister got married. So my older two brothers got together. And they got an apartment 144th Street. They used to live in a barrio in Manhattan come to el barrio. And they came to Manhattan.

So what happened during that era, the Puerto Rican family-- somebody comes first, establishes himself here, and sends for the other. And then, when we're here, we used to live in the railroad apartment. And we were like eight of us in there. We used to send for our cousin too, from Puerto Rico.

So we sent for our cousin. Our cousin came with the other cousin. Then, they get together. They save money. They get an apartment. They send for their family. And that's what they were-- so everybody was getting ready, like I can't wait to be 18 to go to New York.

Finally, I got here early. But everybody wanted to come to New York.

Q: What did you think it was going to be like here?

RIVERA: Well, people lie. When we're living in Puerto Rico, they made some stories. There was two stories that I never forgot. These guys said, man, New York is so much money that you could trip on a rock or something, and money comes up. [LAUGHS]

[INAUDIBLE]

And another person said, man, I got to tell you about that snow. I was walking. 01:54:00It was snowing, and it was slippery. And I slipped, and I went from one to the other. [LAUGHS] What the hell? He doesn't know. [LAUGHS]

Then, we come here to the South Bronx, I've never seen so much roaches in my life and rats. I mean, they were-- I never seen them in my life. I don't see no rat in my house running-- we're living in a bunch of roaches. And over here, I thought there was no roaches in here.

But it was like, you're expecting a lot. When I moved, I remember they were building Mott Haven [INAUDIBLE]. We used to work there-- play in there, Mott Haven. And I started liking it because something new, new sport, snowing.

We had no sled, right. So we went with other kids in the Bronx. We said, let's to to St. Mary. We go to St. Mary's to take all of the metals to a garbage can top, steal it from the supers, and go to St. Mary's and going to make [WHOOSH NOISE] slide down with sneakers, no boots. I don't care. We're freezing, but it was fun.

Then, Puerto Rico, we have birds. We have parrots, yeah. But it's not like in here. You have birds in your house [GRUMBLING] Over here, they-- pigeon code. The guys they go to the roof frying the bird that lives all those in the neighborhood.

I said, what is that? Oh, the pigeon code [MUMBLING] went into our roof. So that 01:56:00was something new. I knew the culture [INAUDIBLE]. What do you call that? We used to do the circle, and then we used to--

Q: Ski ball? No.

RIVERA: [INAUDIBLE] the other day.

Q: Shuffleboard?

RIVERA: Uh?

Q: No.

RIVERA: It's been so many years. They other day, they were-- I was saying football on Facebook. They were showing something. And we used to go in there. You get like a cap, and you fix it real good. You put a little-- maybe you get a candle and put some-- to make a little heavy. Or you go and those-- you know those tiles, the little ones they put in the bathroom? [INAUDIBLE] Sketchy-- Sketchy-- it was something like that-- Sketchy.

And you had the cement circles, a one, two, three, four, five, eight, until you-- you've got to go around putting-- until you get to the middle-- to the 01:57:00middle, whoever the front. And my ma used to get pissed, because I used to my friend, used to get all messed up.

So there was a stickball. I didn't have anyplace to go with a ball hitting the stoop. Stickball! You never played stickball? Throw the ball [INAUDIBLE] three bounce, one bounce. And my brother and I, with one of those-- states.

We used to take the-- every-- find somebody's broom, left somebody's broom, we would take it. And it was something new. And we embraced all of that.

And we were good fight-- you know, playing ball in Puerto Rico, that's all we did, play ball. So that give us a sustent, the jibaros-- no in English. We're going Clark. When we went to your high school, they had the bilingual class. 01:58:00They had very good bilingual class, and we were always fighting with other classes because the jibaros, the non-English. Kids are rude. Kids are rude, you know.

And they used to make fun-- they like to make fun of us, so we used to fight. And we used to take their girls too. [LAUGHS] But, you know, it is-- it's amazing. It was amazing. That's why I don't move from the South Bronx.

One time, my ex-wife told me, oh, let's move. We've got to go here. I said no. Where am I gonna move? I moved to-- I did. We moved to Bethel Park. Lasted one year, one year. I said, I'm going back to South Bronx. This is where I have 01:59:00everything. I work. I've got family. I've got good friends. I feel at home.

That's why when I go to see my daughter in Florida, stayed with her, by the second week, going third week, I'm going back to New York. They say, well, why, Dad? You don't want to visit?

Nah, man, I'd rather be in the South Bronx, because when I walk down the street, I know Doña Juana. I know Mr. Brown. When I do this, when I do that. All you Florida people don't talk. I don't know who lives next door to you. I've been here two weeks. I haven't seen the people that live next door. They're like ghosts. Coming out. And everybody do their own thing, and I can't live here.

And mall? You want a mall? A mall? I can't. I can't. And I don't care whatever they say, New York crime or whatever-- but we have freedom. I don't drive. 02:00:00Because I came out of Vietnam. Because back then, I never drove. I said, what I'm gonna do in Florida? I'm gonna have to have a driver. What I'm gonna do, I'm gonna start organizing here.

[LAUGHS]

Do you remember-- and you were talking about how people liked to dress in the late '60s, early '70s. Can you describe like what a cool outfit would be?

What was that?

You were talking about how people liked to dress nicely and dress up.

Oh. Oh yeah.

Like the clothes were important to you. Can you describe for me what a cool outfit would be?

Those days, tailor-made. Tailor-made-- you remember, they had Mr. Tony on 125th 02:01:00Street. He used to-- and some other tailors. That's where I used to work. My father and mother couldn't afford it.

So in school-- a lot of people to work and then, they all dressed always. So they used to have proper colored pants. Proper, oh, nice. Alligator shoes-- alligator shoes. They Playboy, they were already out. Alligator shoes. And then, there was a time when the [INAUDIBLE] say knits instead of sweater. They used to call a sweater knits to match your pants real nice. A pocket, a pocket with something like a jacket made of suede. Suede.

And then, when you go to a party-- there were a lot of house parties. Everybody-- every weekend after we finished school, high school, on Friday, we used to get together. How many parties you've got? How many you got? So we're gonna go there.

And then, they invite me to this, so I invite all my friends to that one. They 02:02:00invite him, we all go. But no fighting. Everybody party every weekend, a party, house party everywhere.

But you dressed with a tie and a jacket and a suit. That was before I went into the service. Real nice-- people dressed to kill. Oh no, that day, if you didn't dress, you ain't cool.

I used to go to Bostonian, those Ripleys-- We used to have Ripleys, Astoria, [INAUDIBLE], all the main stores. They're all gone. They went. And I used to buy old shoes and oh, man. I'm telling you.

Then, when I went to the service, I went to Vietnam, everything started changing when I went into the service-- long hair, people with afros, beards, the 02:03:00hippies, the this and that. When I came out of Vietnam, seeing those people in bell bottoms. The clothes that I made to sell when I was in Okinawa, they ship it to me.

That was [INAUDIBLE]. They were out of style. It was like a dream. I don't know. I went, and I came back to a different-- well, things can change in a whole year-- in a whole year.

It was not the same. [INAUDIBLE] was not the same. Those parties, they were no longer. People were afraid to make parties. Christmas time, we used to break out New Years Eve in the street.

In fact, we used to go dancing. There used to be a club in 149th Street where they've got that new gym across from Boston Market. They have a gym in there, right? But that used to be a Bronx Casino. It was dancing club for Puerto Ricans. They used to have the breakfast dance. They used to have dance from 9 o'clock in the night all the way to 6 o'clock in the morning, el desayuno.

I was young. When my brother, my cousin, they were older-- sometimes, they let me in, because I looked so young. I looked like a 14 years old. And the fact they didn't let me-- they didn't let me in, but they let them in. So we used to go in there an party.

And after we come out of there, we used to go to the cuchifrito. Wow, what a great finish. I ate all of those things in there. I can't do that no more. 6 02:05:00o'clock in the morning, instead of-- and then we go there. Well, you know, yeah, we thought we as doing the right thing.

But the good thing about the South Bronx and why I love the summer, the culture, the salsa music. When we talk-- we were talking about dressing good. It goes with the music. They have so many great salsa musicians came out of the South Bronx and came out of the Hunts Point area, all of that area, all of the giants in there. But this was my era. This was when they were young, they came up.

We, on 144th Street, before they had closing the street for a block party, we started that. A friend of mine-- there was this couple used to live in the third floor. He used to be a singer and a director of a salsa band. So he used to 02:06:00practice on Friday. When the time came, when they got that little piano, came out. So he used to practice in the sidewalk, the band, [INAUDIBLE] in the night.

Get all the light from his apartment and play in the sidewalk, rehearsing. And we used to party. Everybody was playing dominoes. People playing dominoes. People playing with children, drinking beer. And everybody knew each other.

There was a gang, Gypsie Surfide When I came, they were like Puerto Rican Surfside. 144th and 45th, it was the Gypsie Surfside 146th. Then, on 43rd, there, they had the Skinner. They were Italian. Then, 138th, they had the Puerto 02:07:00Rican-- what did they call it-- Puerto Rican something. And these people, they used to-- and then, in 144th St., they ha the young Puerto Rican gang by Brook Avenue. And 144th by Willis Avenue, they had a gang, but this is adult. They were already adult in their 20s, Puerto Rican.

And one time, one of the ladies of the Gypsie Surfside, the young Puerto Ricans, something happened. They took her to a basement, and I don't know what what. I don't know if they raped her or if she consented. The thing is that I knew Wilfredo. That was her boyfriend. Wilfredo came with another guy with a bat.

When he saw that-- what his girlfriend-- before that, he saw-- and I remember seeing her girlfriend coming out the building. She was like drunk. And he came-- he took them. And then later on, he came with other people. I guess he told what happened. He came out. Man, there was a war between the older Puerto Rican with the young Puerto Ricans. And they were like that for weeks.

But see, the good thing about that, there were no guns. They used to fight with stickball and you know what I mean? Knives with stickball, fistfight. Somebody wanted to fight, we would fistfight. It was like not now. We can't, you know.

And there was us. And they used to mess, the young guys, they used to mess with the people that lived there. But my family, I said, we were five. We had my two cousins. So we were a big family. We were like seven with my father-- we were 02:09:00like six or seven men.

And then, friends that used to come in the weekends to visit all, they didn't mess with us. They knew there was too many of us. But then with another else, going to the musician, we had the best musicians. We used to call in the '60s-- people on the '70s, boy, they called Las Villas. Las Villas is upstate New York in Puerto Rican community. What is that called, upstate New York? [SIGHS] After Yonkers, all the way-- ay, ay, ay.

Rochelle?

Huh?

New Rochelle?

No, no. The other side.

Oh.

Ah man, I'm getting old. That's OK. We can fill it in. But anyway, there's a big 02:10:00Puerto Rican-- a lot of people started going there. But [SPANISH] used to be there. [SPANISH] was-- they are like little houses of music, right? I remember going there, salsa music. They roast pork. And the busses leave from here, you do a fundraiser, take a-- and we used to go in there.

I used to go with a lot of the people, with the musicians. They used to play over there, stay there the weekend. Love it. Oh man. Then, when I came from Vietnam, then I went back, it was not the same. Nothing was the same.

When did you start to notice buildings being abandoned and that kind of thing?

'71. Came out of Vietnam. Little by little. It came to a time that you could walk from 148th Street all the way to the middle of the block all the way to 138th. Before they were building St. James, Brook Park, all, you could walk all 02:11:00of that through there. Everything was then.

145th Street-- the only thing that was in 145th Street between Willis and Brook was the church. And the house, the white house that is there at 304, that was the only thing, the only house that was there. Everything was gone.

144-- this side, the north side, all abandoned. Just the private houses, the old houses and that. 143rd Street-- 143 Street is-- I mean, 140-- all of it. Where is the park on 143rd and Brook-- and Willis is a community garden. That used to be a supermarket. I work in there too. After 144, I worked there before National 02:12:00Shoes. I used to work in the supermarket.

And I was having an activity in there about two or three years ago and I was telling people-- they said, how long you've been here? Oh, I could tell you. When I was 15 years, old, there used to be a supermarket-- mini supermarket here. And I used to work here, taking groceries, delivering groceries. They said, wow. I said, that's right.

Can you tell me about what Brook Park was like before it was Brook Park?

It was a schoolyard. It was a basketball court, cement. It was a junkie paradise. That side, the side by Brook Avenue-- or was that the building behind-- there were junkies-- a junkie [INAUDIBLE]. There was some line, big line, people thinking they were giving out cheese or-- and they were all to buy heroin.

When people used to walk out-- you walked with a [INAUDIBLE], I remember. I was walking my friend, who was an attorney. We were all going-- we were in Puebla en Marcha. That was in the '90s. That was not too far. And we were walking down.

And all of a sudden, you heard people saying, agua! Agua! Agua! Water! Water! Water! That meant cops, cops, cops. And we're looking, but my friend, his wife, his Puerto Rican wife, he's like a detective . [LAUGHS] So I saw one of my friends that was like a brother to me. He became a junkie. Unfortunately, he died of AIDS.

He saw me, he told me, Maxi, keep going. Don't stop. Keep going. Keep going. 02:14:00Because these people don't know you, and they think that you guys are cops. When they see me talking to you, they think that-- you know, it was like that. But all of that Brook-- from Brook Park all the way to 138th, that side, that was tremendous.

Now, one thing is-- that I would like to mention-- is the Puerto Rican theater. That is a church now, a landmark. And I'm so angry to our elected officials that they let that building go-- historical. Because that's a historical building, that the history of those Puerto Ricans that came to the South Bronx-- not only the South Bronx, but to a barrio. That was one of the few theaters.

When I came from Puerto Rico, there was Puerto Rico, the Boulevard. That was 02:15:00Southern Boulevard. There were only two Puert-- Spanish theater. But Puerto Rico was different.

But they used to do like Christmas time, they used to light a show from-- people from Puerto Rico learning how it is in Puerto Rico, the parranda and things like that. During the years, the other from Puerto Rico, [INAUDIBLE] they used to have a show coming from Puerto Rico, movie.

So this was a main spot for Puerto Ricans. I was 13 years old. Used to go in there, watch the movies, going to the show. And that was a main place that looked-- Puerto Ricans looked forward. To leave the culture and the music, they 02:16:00were dreaming in Puerto Rico. When they sit in there, they-- their mind's going to the island. And it truly is.

And they were supposed to save it. And they didn't. [INAUDIBLE] and that's it. They made it into a church. And people are angry, because you know you know the rivalry-- I don't know if you know a little about sports, boxing? The rivalry between the Mexicans and the Puerto Ricans boxing, it's always a rivalry. Every time Mexican, Puerto Ricans fight, especially for a title, hm. Oh, Mexican community rises up. We were behind our Puerto Rican fighter. They're behind their fighter.

And you know what that starts? 1967. There was a fighter called Carlos Ortiz, my 02:17:00idol when I was growing up. Those days, we listened to fights on the radio. There was no TV. It was radio. And he used to fight-- they called him the traveling fighter. Nobody in Puerto Rico knew it.

So he goes to fight Mexico. It was Saturday-- fight [INAUDIBLE] who's a Cuban resident in Mexico. Left Cuba when Castro took over to live in Mexico. So he became one of the favorite Mexico [INAUDIBLE] one of them, right?

So he was fighting Carlos Ortiz. Carlos Ortiz knocked him out. Mexicans, they got pissed. And the referee stopped the fight. He knocked him out. He was opposite to-- Referee stopped the fight. they started throwing-- in those days, they had cans. And now, they're not allowed to throw-- no place, they're allowed to go with cans. They would throw all kinds of shit. Bang, bang. Carlos Ortiz, 02:18:00they were throwing.

Man, Puerto Ricans, they are so proud. What happened-- Mexican, Tony Aguilera, Mexican singer, folk singer, had a show in Teatro Puerto Rican, a Mexican having a show. When the Puerto Ricans [INAUDIBLE] find out what happened to Carlos Ortiz in Mexico, they went bananas.

At that time, I was a kid, so a teen at 17. So he was great with me. But now, I don't support-- they break-- and they broke the teatro. They made a riot. They made us stop the show and get those Mexicans out of here.

They took them-- and they didn't have nothing to do with what happened, but their passion-- their passion, 1967. They broke the glass in the theater and 02:19:00everything. And cops came. They were throwing molotovs. It was a riot. Made gasoline in a bottle [INAUDIBLE] boom. It was a riot for the fight.

Starecheski: I never heard that before. [LAUGHS] When did you start to notice Mexicans coming to live in this neighborhood?

The other day.

[LAUGHS]

Yeah. Now, what about in Mott Haven?

I think the last 10 years. I could say that. There were maybe a little more. When I was growing up here, Puerto Rican, American, Irish. There were a lot of Irish, lots of Irish. When I lived on 144th those two buildings, they were Irish.

Then, they moved to-- when they opened Mott Haven, they moved to Mott Haven or 02:20:00[INAUDIBLE] when they opened up [INAUDIBLE].

The Irish people moved into the projects when they opened them?

Yeah. As a matter of fact, there's still a family [INAUDIBLE] from that time, the Kelley family, the Kelleys. There's still one of them that's still in here. And I used to delivery groceries to her. They used to buy-- in the bodega, they used used to-- yeah, there were a few, I think-- I don't even know what was the Dominicans. Next door to us, there was a Dominican family. I didn't know what was Dominican. I thought they were Puerto Rican. You know, everybody's Puerto Rican me.

But anyway, the thing is that they were-- when I was in school, there were probably like five students, three or four students Dominican in my class. The rest were Puerto Rican. No Mexicans. I think probably in the last 15 years, 10 years, started moving in.

Q: Were there any white kids in your class?

RIVERA: Huh?

Q: Were there any white kids in your class?

RIVERA: Yeah. Tommy-- Tommy Sayesa. He kicked my ass, because I didn't speak English. He used to live on 43rd. He was Italian. You know Italian, I was telling you, 143rd, 42nd-- it's just a funny turf. They used to have the Skinners. They were Italian. They used to see Italians there.

And Tommy, Tommy was in my class. And I was skinny. He was bigger than me. I hated that. Talking to [GRUMBLING] somebody. And I remember, he pushed me, and we started fighting. I didn't know that. But then, we confront them the fighting, because back in the-- I used run into him. He was a manager of a supermarket when I used to live in Morris. He moved to Morris.

We moved to Morris. He moved there. Then we say-- And there, he became the manager. My sister used to work in the supermarket. [INAUDIBLE] Tommy Sayesa, I 02:22:00was like, remember those days when we were like kids, man, you know? He's just stupid, you know, kids, being a kid. I guess I can't speak English.

[LAUGHS]

Q: You said that the Skinners. Was that--

RIVERA: A Skinner.

Q: What does that mean?

RIVERA: I don't know. I still want to know. They had the Young Suicide, the Skinner--

Q: It was just the name of the gang.

RIVERA: It was just the name.

Q: OK. OK. And there's something else I wanted to ask you about that. Oh. When and why did your family move off of 144th?

RIVERA: We moved after I came out of Vietnam-- no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We moved back after [INAUDIBLE] Around 1968-- '68 or more, before I went to the 02:23:00service. I was in my last year at Morris. We had some friends that used to live in Morris Ave and 168th that was also Irish.

They were moving to Puerto Rico, and they asked my parents if we were interested in taking their apartment. And we did. And we moved to Morris. And in 1974, we moved back. I applied earlier-- earlier than that, I applied for the projects. Since I was a Vietnam veteran, I put myself in the application with my parents. I never-- [INAUDIBLE] they got their apartment, but I never got to move with them. I had my own life.

Then, I move in there. Then, when they went to Puerto Rico, I [INAUDIBLE] and I 02:24:00moved back, I took-- I took over their apartment. That's why I got elected in '96 in the community school board. And Carmen Arroyo, first thing that she did when I got her out of the ballet-- I mean, out of president, investigate Maxi Rivera, for he's living in a place that he's not supposed to be living. They thought that I moved into my mom's apartment without housing knowing. Little that she knew that their apartment was given to them because I was a Vietnam vet.

Q: And where was that apartment?

RIVERA: In 141st and 3rd Avenue, Patterson.

Q: In Patterson.

RIVERA: Right there by-- across from Giovannia. Right there with the pole?

Q: Yeah.

RIVERA: I used to live on the 12th floor.

Q: Tell me about living in Patterson. So you lived in Patterson from--

RIVERA: Well, my parents moved there from the-- OK, I moved in '86.

Q: '86?

RIVERA: With my-- yeah, my family.

Q: OK.

RIVERA: After I took over their apartment. And then, I became the-- like always, always-- I became the tenants patrol. [LAUGHS] So I was working in the post office, started working in the post office. That's why it gave me a little living then. Took Pueblo en Marchas. I became the director of the tenants patrol. [INAUDIBLE] work.

And then, it get to a point that they couldn't take it, because crack-- when crack came, we tried to organize a building, have a tenants patrol. But then, after 10:00 when the tenants patrol used to close, hell broke loose in the-- people peeing in the elevator. I used to work-- I'd come out of work at 12:00. There was times I used to hang out in [INAUDIBLE] with my friends, going to the 02:26:00bar, drink, and come back at 3:00 or 4:00. And then, I got to take those elevators.

And then, I say-- into point, I say-- we got to get out of here. I was forgetting-- getting in the elevator, somebody in the middle of open the floor. They get you in there. So I used to take the stairs. Better. I would bring my knife and go up the stairs instead of taking the elevator.

And then, we moved to 16th and Girard, right by Yankees Stadium. It was beautiful in there. Go jogging there. I could hear the Yankees when they used to-- and I was a baseball player-- it was good. It was good.

But then, like I said, in '70, we moved back into-- '86, I moved back in-- I never left. Because like I say, I didn't live in the South Bronx, but I was 02:27:00always in the South Bronx. And I was not that far apart. Like I said, I was by Yankee Stadium, around that area. But I was working in the South Bronx.

And then, when I-- yeah. We were on 43rd. Went to Girard. And then, I moved to Bedford Park. And I said, nope, moved back to Brook Avenue. So how can you go from Bedford to Brook Avenue? [LAUGHS] You crazy. But this is-- this is where I feel more comfortable.

Q: Tell me about getting this house.

RIVERA: Huh?

Q: Can you tell me about getting this house?

RIVERA: My cousin-- my nephew-- my nephew who was a police officer retired after 9/11. My nephew was like my son. My older brother used to be a correctional 02:28:00officer in Puerto Rico. He died 1971, two months after I came from Vietnam. He died in an accident.

And my nephew was one year old when he died. And then, we brought him with us. My mom [INAUDIBLE] in Puerto Rico like three months. But when he was older, he went and went back with his mother. We lost track of him for 10 years. We were looking until we find him.

And finally-- we would always be together. He was very fond of my father. My father, grandfather, everything for him. He bought this house-- I was living in 02:29:00Brook Avenue, right across from Brook Park Burger. And I moved here. I never had a beautiful, brand new-- I'm the only tenant, the first tenant, only tenant in this apartment. They have rugs and everything. [INAUDIBLE]

I sent. I did the floor. When I retired, I did the floor. I did the kitchen. I did the bathroom, the sliding door, [GRUMBLING] throwing me out? [LAUGHS] And this is the longest I've been in an apartment. I'll be here until I die.

Q: How did Brook Park go from being a junkie paradise to being a garden?

RIVERA: That was a lot of work. [INAUDIBLE] I've got to give that to Harry. His people in that corner, a lot every day. That was a lot of work. They did it, 02:30:00man. I did some work, but not what they did, man. You've got to get to them.

That's like when-- I know when I told you last week when they came to 33 and they went there all over there. And people started talking, oh, they're coming to take over. I said, take over what? What are they gonna take over? We ain't got shit here. We ain't got nothing. If they're coming to bring something, I think we should work with them. They're open to come.

And I'm glad. Because Brook Park is so central. I'm sorry I haven't been there in almost a year, because I've got to take care of this. But it's just so important, because that's a place that I would like to turn this one. A meeting, concentration, people come together. A farm in the middle of the South Bronx-- chickens. I think that one of the best things that-- I say.

And I hope everything-- I see somebody else moving to the committee. Michael came, and others. Welcome. Welcome. I got arrested with them two. We got arrested. And I say, whenever you need me, I'll be there. All right. And I said, it'll be 14 years in here. I was never involved.

Before they did the park, there used to be a schoolyard. The basketball court used to be in here. They had a big problem, because old-timers, they used to come here and play football all over the-- and there's no problem with that.

But they used to sit outside, do a cookout, started drinking and party. And they leave. And when they used to leave, they leave all of that a mess. So move here. 02:32:00Again, I told my nephew, you've got to do something. You's a homeowner.

I could do my part. I went to Carmen Arroyo's office, spoke to her. My friend, Gilberto Rivera, rest in peace, one of the founders of Nos Quedamos. I say, Gilberto, I need Nos Quedamos office. A new Nos Quedamos, and explained to him what was happening.

So this whole meeting-- we all went. Everything is fine. Met with Carmen, some of them, a few of them. But not anybody takes time off, and we [INAUDIBLE] 02:33:00Carmen's support.

And then, they said, well, I'll tell you what. That's going to be converted into a little league park.

A little league park?

Yes.

So, I said, now you're going to take our schoolyard to convert into a little league park, because when Yankee Stadium built their new park, they took over all the parks. So now you're going to dress a saint-- undress a saint to dress another one. So we started negotiating. I said, well, who's going to play there? Little League. OK.

So with the homeowners, we made a Nos Quedamos. And they started liking not going to a meeting. They're different, right? So they build-- I was telling them that the fence should have been more higher if they're going to get bigger kids [INAUDIBLE] in there. So we stop before they build. We stop the whole thing, the 02:34:00drinking and other shit. Build the park.

Then, they bring junior [INAUDIBLE]. Junior [INAUDIBLE] 14 years old, 15. No, these kids are big. They've got power. They'll break you all kind of windows. Oh shit. You wanna [INAUDIBLE]?

Q: The baseballs were flying over here.

RIVERA: [INAUDIBLE] too big.

My nephew played in there. He broke one of the windows. [LAUGHS] So all right, they're started complaining. They didn't go to a meeting, right? They were like-- we had a meeting in the school with the principal, the 40th precinct, my nephew in there. They didn't show up.

So when they started complaining to the board, I ain't got nothing to do. I did what I had to do. And they did. They did. Finally, they did. And they stopped. I 02:35:00didn't do it. They did it. So they started playing the [INAUDIBLE]. And then, that's what started me-- and then-- not that they all started fighting because I was telling them.

My son was living with me. He came to stay for a few months. He was almost a year. He's say, papa, you've got to leave. You've got to leave. I need my space. I love you. We get along, but I need my space. You need your space.

So I went to him. I said, listen, you get a one-bedroom apartment? He says, yeah. Well, my son here, blah, blah, blah. He's got a good job. He works for the tunnels on-- he's a sergeant now-- tunnels on bridges. They tunnels on bridges. They tried borrowing all of the people in there.

Yeah.

So I said, he got a good job. He blah, blah. I said, how much is the rent? $1,100. 13 years ago. I said, $1,100 a month? Why? How much is your mortgage? I 02:36:00think we just-- because that was two bedrooms. I think with apartment that's two bedrooms, you could pay your mortgage. I said, you don't pay rent downstairs, because now you're really free of rent. So you save rent money. And with the two, you pay your mortgage, live for free. So why so much money?

So they're having a tenant move in there now. Section A, they used to live stranded, and then this, the two-bedroom back $1,400. Now, they're asking $1,500. So when we started organizing for the building, some of them made some comments. They started drinking, and I started talking to them.

Sometimes when people drink, silly what they're thinking. And he said, well-- that's what I find out-- he said, oh, one of the homeowners goes, You know, Maxi, you are a great guy. You're a beautiful guy. [GRUMBLING] But a lot of the people here don't trust you.

I said, why? Oh, because you think I'm-- we're rich. You think that we're rich and [GRUMBLING]. I said, oh. You think that I think that you guys are-- oh, so I think that my nephew's rich, too. Right?

He said, no, papa. He said different. If I want to buy a house like this, I'll go to buy it. [INAUDIBLE] I could [INAUDIBLE] design [INAUDIBLE] for me. He said, but, for me, never. I wouldn't. I said, I-- so why do you think that I think that you're rich? You know, I said, I retired from the post office. I 02:38:00always had good jobs.

I'm gonna tell you-- and they're like, you, because you're always running to one job to the other one. You telling me-- I said, no, what I'm telling you is that a lot of people sacrificed their lives and fought for these houses for you guys that didn't even live in this community to take advantage. And you know what hurts me? That you're renting those apartments to your people, the emigrants. That they can't even afford to pay those rents. They have to live like, two families.

This is why it worries-- its gets me is that you're doing-- what they were doing to you, you're doing to them. And that's what's the difference between-- it's not that I don't along. I get along with everybody. I don't care if they're white, they're black, they're whatever. That has nothing to do.

So now, hey, Max, Max are you going to take over that garden, yeah? Because they 02:39:00knew-- I told him that's going to come back. That's a $6 million project, and somebody's going to make millions. [SPEAKING SPANISH] anything that you--

Q: Just maybe-- how about two or three more questions? Is that OK?

RIVERA: Yeah.

Q: And I know we've been talking for a long time, but there's so much I want to know. when did you start to realize that gentrification could be an issue in the South Bronx?

RIVERA: [SIGHS] To tell you the truth, it was not too long. I think when [INAUDIBLE] and these people started fighting for the waterfront, that really 02:40:00started it. But because late '90s the city-- the state power authority came out with-- they want to build three power plants. There were five, two of them here.

But then when we saw it, the one that was from Queens, they were closer to the Bronx than to Queens. So we figured we had four. And we started organizing. I remember-- it's funny-- yeah, yeah. I'm deaf, but my memory's great.

I got a nephew that's an activist too. He lives in Santana, the one that came for [INAUDIBLE] and his wife both participating in the farm workers. I called a meeting of Pueblo en Marcha to bring all the community, different community organizations to see, how can we all work together? That was in the '90s.

How can we all work together, like in a coalition, put our difference? There's enough territory for everybody. There's plenty of work.

So [INAUDIBLE] a meeting. Harry came. That's when I started knowing Harry. Prior to that, they had a meeting, y Espada, Senator Espada or whatever, office. And I didn't go. They were talking about the power plant, and I was not even aware.

So when I had that meeting, these people came, they started talking about the power plant and all that. So that meeting, instead of doing a coalition of different organizations to organize, we did the South Bronx Environmental Coalition. That came [INAUDIBLE], came out of there-- Harry and we were fighting the power plant.

My nephew and Harry, they went to school together, Cornell-- Cornell University. My nephew, I said, you know him, that white guy? That white guys is crazy. [LAUGHS] Quédate. No, he's a nice guy. [INAUDIBLE] crazy, Harry, crazy.

That's why we started organizing. That's how to grow a environmental coalition. Going back to your question, is there going to just power plants in there and then the burns-- the incinerator right up from the street, the one that we closed. I mean, they had no plan for the waterfront. But all the businesses, all of the younger-- I never thought.

Well, I wanted-- the new millenium, and I started seeing people develop in the 02:43:00waterfront in Queens and different places. And then, I hear Harry and other people talking about, we should have access to the water. We shoot the canoe. And then, that's why I really-- I never-- I knew-- because I've been been a housing organizer, that something was going for an instant.

Wagner, Robert Wagner, the mayor of New York-- until the early '60s, he was the mayor. I remember it. I was a kid. They had the Wagner-- Robert Wagner Plant. They were to make Manhattan a fantasy island. OK, displace all of those people-- Manhattan el barrios, the West Side, Manhattan Avenue, all of those, Amsterdam, all of the 90s to 100-something something street. Ah, this place-- to make a 02:44:00fantasy island. It was a lot of fun. It used to be a program.

The same thing with the West Side. Back in the '70s when I was working in Morris Heights, people were saying, you see this part of the [INAUDIBLE] Bronx? And that part of the South Bronx by what they're building now, that's going to be prime real estate. And I'm talking about back then, the late '70s.

I said, you know why? Because come a time, that people are gonna have to-- they'll want to move back. They'll want to move back to the city. In those days, gasoline was started going up. People in Co-op City, they want to get out of there. Co-op City was sinking, they were saying at that time. A lot of people 02:45:00want to leave Co-op City.

Well, [INAUDIBLE]. And that's what I started learning, anything by the waterfront, by-- on the bridges is good real estate. Because let me tell her, they could build apartments for rich people, and they don't have to come to the community. They've got a high one in there. They could to the tri-state are, whatever they want to go without coming. And that was then [INAUDIBLE]. But they're all getting prepared with it.

I started hearing about gentrification. What the hell is that? But it was not until about probably 10 [INAUDIBLE] Brook Park started to-- started making noise-- Johnson, Michael, and those people. It's a shame, man.

It changed the-- changed-- what do you call it? The income of a family of four over here is $21,000. With a new mayor, they charged to $33,000. Family of four, $21,000 here struggling. And when people-- you know, what would get me, people, a lot of people-- I mean, good people, it's they don't understand. They're not educated.

And one time, my nephew used to be-- had that mentality too. And he said, oh, but for what, to give people on welfare, people don't work. I said, let me tell you something, papa. When we're talking about housing, oh yeah, sure, we're talking about everybody. But you've got a lot of family here. And then, he 02:47:00realized it.

I said they got a family here, working family, that don't make not even $20,000. And they're a working family. They work two jobs. Everybody as trying to pay that rent.

I'm not talking about those people out there. I'm talking about working people. And yeah, there are people on social services because, probably, we've got a lot of single mothers with kids that they can't go to work. Or the other people, they have their reasons. Sure, you have a lot of people that don't want to do it. But I'm not gonna-- I'm not talking about those, papa. So every time they talk about affordable housing, they think about, oh, [SPEAKING SPANISH] time to go to work. It's a perception.

Q: Let me make-- you were talking about the waterfront ad gentrification. Do you mean that when you started hearing people talking about getting access to the 02:48:00waterfront it made you think that that was going to be part of a gentrification process, getting that--

RIVERA: No, no getting [INAUDIBLE] not giving us answers to the waterfront-- something-- they were hiding something. Something was hiding. Because like I said, after the power plant, I never thought-- but then, Randall's Island come to play. Right there, Randall's Island I grew up going Randall's Island. We didn't used to go to the bridge. We used to go to Willis Avenue, going there-- go right.

My father, my brother, everybody played softball. I grew up going there weekends. We didn't go to Central Park. We'd go to Randall's Island. And there, they used to have a little fiesta, the fiesta from [INAUDIBLE].

Come back in the '90s to 2000, renting over on this island to rich school. We did with Melissa [INAUDIBLE]. We demanded the bridge, that thing with the bridge with access to there, stop the drinking-- I mean the rent. They have parties in there, champagne for the really, really-- oh, man.

Right there, that told me he is very serious. And that's why I'm going back, taking away what we fought for, they're taking away little by little. And until white people wake up, smell the coffee-- '70 we fought. '80, we fought a little. '90, don't take it. And now, again, it's doing that one.

But when I saw the move Randall's Island, I said, mm, It's not for us. The [INAUDIBLE] building got repaired after so many years abandoned. Then, we get in-- [INAUDIBLE] school. I don't mind having all of them from SoHo move in, the anti and the artists. But don't gentrify. We want. Don't feel that you-- in one community with two-- tale of two cities. Tale of two cities You know, we come here and here.

And it's funny because when I was in high school, I never thought I was going to get into politic, you know. But in my literature class-- and I really didn't like it-- [INAUDIBLE]. It was my last class, as a matter of fact, in the afternoon. We read a book-- I think I read about- John Steinbeck. We read John 02:51:00Steinbeck. It was more like socialism, Grapes of Wrath. And I-- never paid atten-- and I liked the book. Then, there was another book, Charles Dinken, A Tale of Two Cities.

Did you know, never in my life [INAUDIBLE] started running for office, he started calling me Tale of Two Cities, it hit me. All of a sudden, it hit me, I said wow, that was Dinken. Dinken. Dinken. Dinken. Dinken, go figure. It was a coincidence, right, that [INAUDIBLE] later, here we find Tales of Two City. Isn't that something?

Q: The last thing I want to ask you about is I realize you mentioned your kids a 02:52:00little bit and your wife. Can you just tell me a little bit about your family life, like how did you meet your wife, for example?

RIVERA: First wife, second wife? [LAUGHS]

Q: First wife.

RIVERA: No, I met-- crazy-- I was working National Shoes 170. I was assistant manager. That's where I met my first wife, my daughter's mother. Funny, because that's why I started organizing. I used to-- 170, when I got together with her, they used to live 170 and then Townsend Avenue. Townsend, 170.

So when I got together, I move in the area to the street. And that as early '70s. I really-- I wanted-- at that time-- because when I come out of Vietnam, I 02:53:00made me a promise that I was going to get involved. That was a promise that I made. So at that time, I said, how am I going do this?

That's when I met-- when I was working on Saturday-- every Saturday morning, a group people used to come outside the store to sell newspaper. They call it Claridad. Claridad was a newspaper for the Puerto Rican socialist party. So I started talking to them. I already knew that I was going to become fight for-- they're already involved. Let's put it this way. Pero I started [INAUDIBLE]. I was not into no groups. So I started [INAUDIBLE], and that's how I become close to them.

And I became part of-- they used to deliver the newspaper. And then, I used to go to the meeting. And then, we used to meet in different houses. In my house, we have a group of people. We used to take a book or something, an article. And 02:54:00we used to read that article, and we used to discuss it.

Every week we used to do that. That's why-- I didn't learn nothing. My education mainly came from the street. People ask me, what was your eduction? Well, I got a PhD for the South Bronx Street University.

So I started with them. Then, I led NYCHA. I mean, I led the post office. I went to Bronx Community College. That's why the margin. And then, I started to say, I want to organize. Instead of organizing tenants-- I always tried to organize my first building. I didn't know what the heck I was doing.

That's what made me realize, because I used to talk to people, Puerto Rican people, about the independence of Puerto Rico. And they're over here, right. And people would say, mira, don't talk to me about the independence of Puerto Rico. 02:55:00Talk to me how I'm gonna get heat and hot water, how I'm going to get a job, how I'm gonna get my landlords to repeal my-- and I used to bring that to the people. I said, we need to get involved in our community [INAUDIBLE].

Because OK, republican, but the issue-- people here have got different issues. And then, the people that we coming from Puerto Rico, they didn't understand. And then, we used to smoke. OK. Our generation, we used to smoke pot. They like it. They called us loopers-- loopers-- loopers like somebody's on drugs, like-- home. And we had a lot of [INAUDIBLE].

So I did say that's what we did, whole story, La Raza Unida. And then, I started organizing the youth block party, closed the block party, had a lot of gang, lot 02:56:00of musician friends. So I used to bring live music with a band and everything. We cleaned the block before, and then after we finished, we had some stickball.

So National Shoes I ended up across the street [INAUDIBLE] my first wife. And we were-- she was not a politician. She's a very possessive person, very possessive against [INAUDIBLE].

And then, I remarried again. I married a person, a beautiful lady. We went to school together. She was in Clark when I was in the [INAUDIBLE]. But we were the jibaros. She was one of them that called us a jibaro. She came over here when she was a baby. She was one that would call us a jibaro. And I'd say, well, now, 02:57:00what are you doing with this jibaro now? [LAUGHS]

But yeah, say, well, you've got it. You've got it. Look. you still like the jibaros more, right? We were fired. We didn't let nobody intimidate us. And we were together.

But you know, Manuela's a great person, a great person, and my second wife understanding. She didn't have no family here. Her sister went back to Puerto Rico. And unfortunately, I was too involved. Like I said, we get emotionally tied up to so many things. It's like never finished.

You are working on something. You finish, and before you finish on that one, something's already waiting for you. I guess she was a little tired. You know, she-- I don't blame her. I don't blame her. She said, I'm going to Florida. And 02:58:00I said, well-- [INAUDIBLE] she moved to Florida.

We were together. I used to go to Florida, stay with her, blah, blah, blah. It was not about love. It was not about betrayal. We're still the best of friends. She remarried. I haven't. A lot of people, oh, you're still a hot guy now with a few dates here and there.

I still love her. She is still the woman in my heart. Unfortunately, sometimes you make decisions that hurt. And I said to my son and my daughter, this is our decision [INAUDIBLE]. You know, we made a decision because I couldn't move to Florida. If I would have moved to Florida, I will die, because who I am. I said, what would it be worse?

Then, she became a religious. And she became a Christian, a Catholic. There are 02:59:00no problems. But the thing is that she was very involved in the church. And it came to a time that she didn't [INAUDIBLE] music.

I said, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know who I am. You know I can't go without my music. I like to have my beers. I like to go to concerts. I don't go dancing. I'm a good dancer, but I don't. Well, as a family-- I go to a cruise. I go on a salsa cruise.

Last year-- no, at the end for Thanksgiving, we went to Santo Domingo. Seven bands, salsa bands from Miami. This year, we're leaving from Miami to Cuba. Give me salsa. Give me music from 10 o'clock in the morning to 4 o'clock at night, I'll be party. And nobody will stop us. And I love that, and she knows it.

But every morning, she sends me something. And I send her something. When I went 03:00:00to-- for Christmas, I went to Florida. I went there with my daughter. I went to her son's-- my stepson-- this is my son too. And she came. And we spent the first time in so many years. My daughter was there. Only one was missing. My son from over here was missing.

But [INAUDIBLE] she was great. She support me. And that's why I-- she need me whenever she was unavailable. But she was a great lady.

And here today, she saved my life. There was a time when I broke from my first wife, I was working with NYCHA organizing. My mom here, my parents still lived in the projects in Patterson. My sister, 145th, my older-- you know, all my 03:01:00family here, my brothers and sisters.

I recall, I used to sleep in the park, the old track-- there used to be a [INAUDIBLE] track, running track. I used to sleep in there. There was a park all the way at the end, right behind the new Yankee Stadium. I used to sleep in there. I used to sleep in the roof of my mother in the projects-- my mom, my pops, living downstairs. I didn't want to deal with nobody.

Came to a point. And then, I used to go to my mom's house, take a shower-- my parents, [INAUDIBLE] take a shower, get dressed to go to court. But I tell you, my mom would say, man, eh, she knew. My mother, you don't lie to me, mother, we feel. We feel. We're feeling. This is a feeling. You're doing-- you're not doing good.

No, Ma, I just came from this lady's house. Well, how come you didn't took a shower in there? It was true. And then, I met my wife.

Funny. Housing call. Somebody recommended it to her. She had a problem with her landlord. She came to the office, beautiful lady.

When she met me, she thought I was a Christian, a religious person. She said, you were so humble and so quiet. You know, I said, oh, you don't-- really don't know the real me [GRUMBLING]. But I went. She had a lawyer for her case. I said, you didn't need a lawyer. She paid $300 an hour. And I resolved her case.

And one day, she told me, I would like you to take-- I would like to take you out for coffee. All right. OK. And that's it. That was the best thing that happened to me was meeting her with my organizing. And she's a great lady.

When I see my son, first thing-- he came over on Saturday-- I said, have you been talking to your mother? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. When she seeing-- or talk to him, I said, do you be seeing your father? He's not my son, by the way. He's my stepson. But I raised him when he was seven years old.

And the first time him and his brother-- his brother's older by three years-- we went to Yankee Stadium. I took them to Yankee Stadium so I could, you know [INAUDIBLE] Yankee Stadium, the old Yankee Stadium with the bleachers. When they started playing the national anthem, I sit down. I didn't get up. I don't get up.

My island is a colony.

I ain't got nothing against Americans. I fought in the war. And that time with 03:04:00Vieques and that. And they asked me, why you don't get up? Why don't get up? Then I started, little by little later, right-- I never-- politics, nothing. I got married [INAUDIBLE] and nothing.

My son used to call Michael. His name was Michael Colón, right? I call him Michael Co León. By the time he got to high school, he was no longer Michael. He was Miguel. This is when-- I never taught him about anything, nu-uh. But he himself saying to my daughter, you know, you look for your roots. [INAUDIBLE] you know who I am. And the way-- but you look, and never. Yes.

He became also a poet and he do his little things in the community. And to this 03:05:00day, when he talks, he says, I remember the first I went with my father to Yankee Stadium. They were playing the National Anthem. Everybody getted up. Yet, he wouldn't get up. And I tell him to get up, but he wouldn't get up. And everywhere else.

Q: I feel like there's a million other things I'd like to ask you about. And maybe we can do more later. But I know you must be tired today. Is there anything else that I should have asked about that I didn't or that you wanted to say or talk more about or add?

RIVERA: Everything comes.

Q: OK. We can do more anytime.

RIVERA: Yeah. Yeah. You got to [INAUDIBLE]. Take a look at the hostess.

Q: Yes.

RIVERA: If you wanted to interview one, I could get you Nilsa. She's in there with a big [INAUDIBLE] That's my sister. She's a great-- [INAUDIBLE] also 03:06:00getting work for legal aid, legal services, legal aid. She worked with this program tenants used to-- through legal aid in Manhattan. Got a lot of building when they got the tenants to won the building. [INAUDIBLE] like I say, after we came [INAUDIBLE] party. [INAUDIBLE] The '80s and the '90s were fighting for housing.

And everything they used to-- police brutality, you know, everything. One time-- I've got to tell you-- one time, we were with Nilsa Ramón, all in Brooklyn. Police killed this man Lebrón. He was a mental-- he had mental illness and problems. His mother called the cops because he was being-- and police caught him, ended up killing him. They shouldn't have killed him. They were, anyway, they couldn't.

But anyway, I remember it was late '80s, I think it was-- in the '80s-- no. 03:07:00Yeah. '80s-- '70s or '80s-- Reverend [INAUDIBLE] he was a big figure in Brooklyn, the Reverend. He was the owner at that time. And he had this mobilization.

We went to Brooklyn. Oh, man. The lawyer for legal services-- we took a van. Wow. Fed up! Can't stand! We're fed up. We can't take it no more. We're fed-- we want justice. We're fed, right. All of this was dark. We were in Brooklyn.

All of a sudden, police were on the roof, police all over. And we're marching like this, right, like this. So don't give no, nobody, we're marching.

Q: With your arms linked together.

RIVERA: Cops chased-- came after us. Man, we were all running. They were come 03:08:00and hit, right? I took this. She had-- black, took her briefcase, my other friend. And we said, well, we don't know-- there were private houses, started knocking on doors. And then, I was there with my friend Julio Pavón, whose turn--

Police came. He said, I know my rights. I know my rights. He said, your rights? Bing. [LAUGHS] I never forgot-- we were running all over Brooklyn. We didn't kno where. And they were all scattered. And we said, where's the train station? How could we get home by? [LAUGHTER]

Q: It's far, Brooklyn.

RIVERA: You know, there's good memories. All--

Q: It's funny that you-- that that's not exactly a happy memory, but like--

RIVERA: No, no. But--

Q: [LAUGHS] Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. It's been really-- it's 03:09:00been really special for me to get to learn from you today.

RIVERA: Anytime. Anytime. Thank you.

Q: And I appreciate you taking the time to--

RIVERA: If I get my youth together-- I get my youth together-- I hope to-- they've got to give me time.

Q: Yeah.

RIVERA: But if I do, maybe I could invite you, so you could talk to them.

Q: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I would-- and as, you know-- think about ways that you think would be useful to share this material. We can do like a listening event. We could do a walking tour, a website. Think about how you think it would be the best way to help people hear your story. All right. Thank you.

RIVERA: It was that. It's good. We've got to document it, because that's what we're going to have left for a new generation. I don't think that we just came here and did nothing, no. There was other people who worked and fought very hard, come together, all different races together in the South Bronx.

And that's why-- that's why I love Harry. I have to tell you. Harry is my brother. Marty and Harry, those are my two brothers. And there's another man that-- he lives in [INAUDIBLE] Court, Irish. He's about-- close to 70, 80 years old-- Tony Dalton. You've got to meet Tony.

Q: I would love to.

RIVERA: He lives in [INAUDIBLE] Court. Tony, my hero. Tony used to have a shelter, run a shelter with some money. He was a elevator [INAUDIBLE] mechanic. Back in the day when there were other shelters, he had a shelter paid for his own money [INAUDIBLE].

Tony, when St. Jerome's roof was coming down, they have-- there was emergency-- he goes swimming every day in St. Mary's Park. Every morning you find Tony. He 03:11:00came [INAUDIBLE].

He did, for eight hours, I think it was, seven, eight hours in the swimming pool People giving, say, $10. I'll give you $0.25 for every lap that you make. And he made more than $10,000 and all in the quiet.

Pueblo en Marcha, when I was telling you that they took the funding, they took our funding. They thought we were going to be closed. I got a call from the church rectory, the secretary said, Maxi, we need you to come to the office. So I went to the office. I say, somebody gave a donation to Pueblo en Marcha, but I cannot tell you who it is. I can't tell you who it is. That person would not allow it. When I opened the envelope, $5,000.

Years passed, post office, Tony helped me. He gave me so many [INAUDIBLE] fighting the post office. Then Tony, in St. Rita In 145th and College, by PS 18, there's a church in there, by Patterson. He used to have a basement. He used to have youth group in his pocket.

Never-- my son went through there. Lot of generations from St. Pius went through that. Then all of a sudden, the church [INAUDIBLE] they kicked him out. He was pissed.

Now, Tony was living in St. Pius in the rectory. Because he that operation, he couldn't climb. So I got him, through Richie, Carmen Arroyo's grandson-- and 03:13:00then, I got him to give me and apartment. And that's where he live.

This man, he will not-- I had to beg him-- he did a story with a Colombian student years back. He didn't want to do it. And we begged him. Because somebody had told the student. They cam to Pueblo. And I said, yeah, we know Tony, blah, blah, blah.

He was trying to get an interview, because they had spoke to him about-- they had spoke to them about him. And Tony refused. And then, he did it. It was amazing. Then, showed us the interview.

We asked Tony, Tony, if you want, through Pueblo en Marcha, we could do some proposals to the Youth Board, to Citizens Youth, all of these people, you know. I said, you could get a couple dollars. Don't tell me. Nobody. I'm going to get 03:14:00no money from nobody telling me how to run my place. I don't want the government to come here and they take to me. You've got to meet Tony.

Q: I want to meet him.

RIVERA: 33rd. And he became the president of something organizing in [INAUDIBLE] Court. Oh, I haven't seen him for about a couple of years. But he's still around. People like Tony--

Q: Yeah, think about who else would be good for me to talk with.

RIVERA: Nilsa for the ladies in the tape, Mari Rogers. These are people that they-- I'm talking about more than 30 years, easy.

Q: OK, I'm gonna turn it off.

RIVERA: OK.