Chervoni_20180314

CHERVONI: Try to get a million dollars for it. And, then, one time, my friend , I was making these, and my friend gave me a box, a wooden box with beads, and shells, and feathers. And I said, cool. And I started making more. I said, you know what? I might as well make some. So I have a whole bunch of that stuff at home. Eventually, I'll get busy and start making.

AMY STARECHESKI: So you made that?

CHERVONI: Yes. Yes. I put a-- I got to make some more. I said, eventually, I'll make some for kids. And I'll just give it to them.

AMY STARECHESKI: I forgot to tell you. Remember you were saying, we should try to collect beer bottle caps?

CHERVONI: [INAUDIBLE]

AMY STARECHESKI: I got these ones that had fish on them that are really cool.

CHERVONI: Oh, yeah?

AMY STARECHESKI: I'm going to get-- yeah, I saved them for you.

CHERVONI: I started drilling into them. I said, there's got to be a better way. So I Googled it. Like, Google is the best. So they got a beer cap or soda cap puncher. You can actually punch the hole in it, and you don't have to drill into it.

AMY STARECHESKI: That makes sense because it's got plastic, and it must be kind of--

CHERVONI: Yeah, well, see how the--

AMY STARECHESKI: --messy to drill into.

CHERVONI: You got the cap. Like, you got the cap here. So, now, you have to put a hole here in order to hang it.

AMY STARECHESKI: Right, right, right.

CHERVONI: So I used to-- I'd be trying to drill, and the drill is moving. I'm like-- because it's metal.

AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah, you can drill through your finger that way.

CHERVONI: But, now, they got a thing that you just put the cap and pop a hole, OK?

AMY STARECHESKI: That's awesome.

CHERVONI: That's it. Let's get busy.

AMY STARECHESKI: OK. So this is Amy Starecheski. I'm interviewing Danny Chervoni. That's how you say your last name, right, Daniel "Cher-vo-ni?"

CHERVONI: Like, if it was an S-H.

AMY STARECHESKI: "Sher-vo-ni?"

CHERVONI: Yeah, Chervoni.

AMY STARECHESKI: Chervoni Say that again.

CHERVONI: Sher-vo--

AMY STARECHESKI: Chervoni.

CHERVONI: Right. There.

AMY STARECHESKI: [LAUGHS]

CHERVONI: You're good.

AMY STARECHESKI: And we are in Ray and Gordy's apartment on 139th Street. Today is March-- oh, my god-- thir--

CHERVONI: 14.

AMY STARECHESKI: --14, 2018. And this is for the Mott Haven Oral History Project. So can you start off by telling me where and when you were born and a 00:02:00little bit about your early life, your family, your background? Whatever you want. Talk as long as you want. I'll jump in and ask questions if you get stuck.

CHERVONI: [CLEARS THROAT] So, as far as I remember, I was born in Brooklyn. The hospital was named Knickerbocker Hospital. It was on the south side of Brooklyn. It was called Williamsburg. And I used to live-- I remember I used to live by the Schaefer company and the Domino Sugar company, by the river. So it was me, my mother, and what was it? My mother had nine boys and two girls.

AMY STARECHESKI: No!

CHERVONI: And my oldest brother went into the military. And we lived in a little house. We lived in a little house. My father worked in Manhattan in a hotel. And 00:03:00my mother was just a stay-at-home mother until we moved to the Bronx.

But when I lived in Brooklyn, we lived down by the river. And we used to go out and play. And we could see the river. We would go to the parks. And there was a Catholic school I used to go to called Epiphany.

I remember, when I was small, my father, we had pigeons in the backyard. And they weren't pigeons to be flying like they do now. These were like pigeons for-- you would call them pets. And every once in a while, we would put one in a pot and make some stew. But they were healthy pigeons. They were real healthy.

I remember, my father used to go to the backyard and dig up the roses and put fish guts for fertilizer. And the roses were beautiful. And I lived in Brooklyn 00:04:00for about-- I don't know, I think till I was about 15, 16 years old, or even less than that.

And, then, we moved to the Bronx. I moved to, what was it, 141st Street between Brook and Willis. I think it was 410. Yeah, 410. 141st between Brook and Willis. My cousins lived there. And they were going back and forth to Brooklyn. Then, eventually, they said there was an apartment there. We moved to the Bronx. And, then, my father became the super of one of the buildings.

And so I lived there. And I used to go to PS 49, which is on the corner, no, on the corner of Willis Avenue and 140th Street. And I remember, as I was a young teenager, my father had the building. He was the super. And it was before they 00:05:00had the oil furnace boilers. It was coals.

And I used to be, like, when my father would go to work-- and my mother worked in Harlem Hospital. So my father worked in a hotel in Manhattan. And I used to run the building as far as, like, the garbage cans, the garbage, and the boiler. So as the truckload used to come, with the coal, and I used to shovel the coal to the back room, and shovel coal into the boiler.

And they had, like, a paddle on the side of the boiler where I used to shake it back and forth, and get the ashes down to the bottom, and shovel out the ashes, put them in garbage cans, and try to get them upstairs, which I didn't know how to do it. My father showed me how to take heavy stuff up the stairs by rolling the cans back and forth instead of trying to pick them up when they were weighing, like, 200, 300 pounds.

And we still went across the street to Burger, to that park that I played, 00:06:00because it was right across the street. We used to go to People's Park. And I remember, when I was a young teenager, I used to go to Burger, and we used to play basketball there. And we had to be home before the lights turned on, before the lights turned on at night.

And in the park, I used to hear these guys. They used to be singing. I didn't know till I learned, and it was called doo-wop. And these guys used to be all the way in the corner, where you couldn't even see them. But you could hear them. And it was either three African Americans, or two and one Puerto Rican. But it was always three. And I used to go over there and hide and just listen to them singing, until I get home and get a beating for being out so late. [CHUCKLES]

Yeah. So, you know, those young days of my life was good because we didn't have 00:07:00all this technology now. You know, we used to go to the roof. We used to fly kites. We used to go get on our bicycles and go to the river, go swimming.

And then we would find pear trees, apple trees, or blueberry bushes, and eat some of them. We would bring some little crabs home, little fishes. They wouldn't last long, but, you know, we'd bring them home, then, they would die by the next day.

We didn't have money for bicycles. You know, in those days, it was like survival. And it was a good survival because, you know, we had good parenting. We had good role models and adults. The kids respected the adults. So, in those days, like, we would find stuff in the street, like, we would build bicycles.

You know, parents didn't have money to be buying bikes, so we would find a frame of a bike. Now, we got to look for some tires, and go to the gas station. And we would just take our skates apart and make skateboards, and go carts, and everything.

And it was nice, those years. You know, then, in the neighborhood, they had, like, as you're growing up, you start noticing-- because we weren't into it because we were always minding our busi-- we're not-- go to the park and play, you know? And there wasn't so much violence like there is now.

You know, there was drugs, but it wasn't violent, like, teenagers taking advantage of people, and all these shootings, and everything. And there was gangs, but they respected each other's-- you know, they were territorial. You know, living in the Bronx, it was OK.

You know, we used to go to the empty lots and collect mattresses. We used to collect mattresses and stack them up, and, then, find a refrigerator. We'd go put the refrigerator next to it and jump off the refrigerators and do flips on 00:09:00the mattresses. And we were running all over the backyards. We would go to the backyards and climb every fence there is, from Brook Avenue all the way to Willis Avenue, through the backyards.

One yard had, there was an old man, he had a German shepherd there. But the German shepherd was tied up. And if the German shepherd would have had us, he would have ate us. There was another old man. He had a slingshot, and he used to shoot marbles at us because we were climbing the fence. And we were stealing his peaches off the tree.

Then, eventually, I went to what? I went from PS 49, I went to Burger. Burger's on 141st and Brook Avenue. So they called it Junior High School 139 Burger. And, now, this-- it's not even Burger no more. There's like four schools in there. Like, they're doing to all these schools. So, like, there's a competition.

And I was in a band. I used to play the trombone. And I also was in a printing class. So I used to do the newspaper, you know? And it's funny. It's like the-- well, now, it's different, but you would actually put all the letters together, and the periods, and the question marks, and the commas. And then as far as pictures, they would give you a tile.

And you would actually carve a picture into the tile, like a cartoon. And, then, you would put it between the letters, which they were made out of metal, and hook up the whole page, and, then, send them into the machine. And we used to make our own newspapers.

I went from what, from Burger. Then, eventually, I went to DeWitt Clinton High School. I went to DeWitt Clinton High School. And school was good. I was in a swimming team. I tried to get on the baseball, but, ah, I said, you know what? There's too much running.

So I stayed on the swimming team [CHUCKLES] because I liked to swim because I used to go swimming in the river almost every day. And, then, eventually, I dropped out of school. I think I was in 11th grade. I was like, oh, man, I'm too tired for this, you know?

We used to go back and forth because we had, what, DeWitt Clinton at that time was a boys' school. And, then, we have Walton. Walton was a girls' school. So we used to go back and forth looking for girls. And the girls used to come to our school. Then, eventually, when the 11th grade came, I was tired of school, and I dropped out.

I dropped out, and my mother was like, what you going to do? I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't want to work. I don't want to do nothing. So before I get in trouble, my mother sent me away to North Carolina. And that's where my brother was. And he was in the Marines. So I was there babysitting his kids. I was babysitting my two nephews.

And, then, what happened was I got recruited into the Marine Corps. And I said, you know what? So what I did was, before I got out into the Marines, I had to actually lose weight. And, then, I had to take the tests in order to qualify. Then, eventually, I went into the Marine Corps. I did, like, three years.

And, then, I got-- what was it? It was a-- I forgot. It was a bad discharge, undesirable discharge under honorable conditions because I got into a fight with a captain. So they put me out. And, then, I was back into the Bronx. So I had 00:13:00this Marine Corps haircut and everything. And, then, I'm with my friends. And all my friends are drug dealers.

And I'm like, yo, these guys are making money, a lot of money and everything. And I would just hang out. I'd hang out with them, and next thing you know, it's like, yo, the police is coming. I said, listen, I'm not running from the damn police. Bullshit, you know?

And I would cross my hands on my chest, and the police would pull up, and they'd be, like, looking around. They'd look at me, and they would look at me, say, yo, what are you doing here? I said, what do you mean? This is a free country. I can stand anywhere I want, you know?

And, then, after one or two times, like, I noticed, they didn't really bother me. And, then, I started realizing, I said, wait a minute, I looked in the 00:14:00mirror, I said, no wonder. I looked like a Marine. I had my Marine Corps haircut. You know, I'm built like Arnold Schwarzenegger, like the Hulk. And they were like, oh, no, we're not messing with that guy. He's military.

Then, eventually, I got into the game, too. I said, you know what? This is fast money. Let me start doing this, too. And that was where my life started going downhill, you know? Because drugs, unless you're getting legal drugs from the pharmacy, you know, you shouldn't be messing with any other type. And that's where I became one of the dealers in the neighborhood. You know, hanging out with the fellows, selling.

And this is back in the, oh, what? In the '80s. '80s, late '70s. You know, where everybody was making money, even the-- there wasn't even homeless people. There was money all over the place. Then, eventually, I started getting caught by the 00:15:00police. Either I sold to an undercover, or I got caught with weapons.

Then, I started going in and out of jail, in and out of jail. I started seeing friends of mine that would either move away, or they would get killed, or they'd be in jail doing time. It was a terrible life. Then, eventually, I got tired of it. I said, you know what? I can't deal with this no more.

And I was also a user. So I was my worst-- like, my best customer. It was like a nightmare. I was using at least $1,000 a day. It was a life where it was, you know, I couldn't even have my own kids because when I had my kids, I got arrested so many times that somebody had to take my kids.

So my mother and my oldest brother, they went to court, and they fought for the kids. So my oldest brother got the kids. And he brought them up. And, you know, I thank God, and I pray for him every day because without him, I wouldn't have been able to do it. You know, my kids would have been lost in the system.

So I got my son, he works at a hospital. My daughter, one of my daughter's is a manager of a restaurant. And she always flits from restaurant to restaurant because she's a good manager. And, then, my oldest daughter's a sergeant in Brooklyn, in the 70th Precinct. And she also did four years in the Marine Corps. And, then, she went and became a police officer. So they're all doing good.

So it was good that he stepped in because I was, like, I couldn't even handle it. I was like, my life was all screwed up. So then eventually, I said, 00:17:00you know what? I've got to do something. My mother used to try to help me, like, take me to the hospital, take me to a detox. I even went to Lincoln Acupuncture on 140th Street.

And I went in there, and I had, like, I don't know, like, maybe a $2,000 a day because I was a dealer, and I also was using my own, snoring. I thank God I never stuck a needle in myself. But I snorted like a vacuum cleaner. And I even went in there, and I was like, they put these needles in me. I said, what is this? This is not going to help me. I have to, like, really detox.

So my mother had moved to Alabama, and I followed her. And I went to Alabama, and I locked myself up in a room. And I stood locked up in that room for like two months. And I thought that was the end of my life. I went through so much withdrawals. I wouldn't wish that on nobody. It was terrible. And then eventually, I survived. And I came back to New York as a new person, you know, 00:18:00as a new person.

Because I remember, when I was with my wife, I would get my paycheck, and I would give her $10 to pay all the bills, out of a check, $10 to pay all the bills. And the rest was going towards the drugs. And every night, I needed drugs to go to sleep, just like addicts now.

Addicts now need them, they need a fix. They have to wake up and get a fix. To go to sleep, they've got to get a fix because if they don't have drugs in them, they cannot sleep comfortable. So I said, I went over to Alabama, I got clean. I was there for about two months.

And my mother took care of me. She would go to the backyard, get vegetables, fruits, take a chicken, wring his neck, maybe some chicken soup, you know? I remember, she had a little goat back there and a dog. And she took care of me.

Then, eventually when I got clean, I came back home. I came back home, and as 00:19:00soon as I came home, I came back to work. I was a supervisor of like 39 employees in a company that was called what, Gargoyles Studio. Used to do reproduction of antiques and all. So I worked with them for about 17 years, till they closed down.

And then I started working for another company because when I worked for that company, I was doing shows in the Jacob Javits Center for Gargoyles Studio. And we would do the gift show. And I would set up a whole booth with all types of reproductions of antiques.

So my boss would go to England, find an antique. Antique is what, maybe 500,000 years old? He would bring it back, and we would start-- make a mold and start reproducing them, and start selling you know mak-- copies, and make reproduction of antiques. So, you know, I was working in Jacob Javits Center and doing the 00:20:00shows for about 18 years.

And then eventually, I was helping another lady on the weekends. Her name is Mia. She used to do Christmas ornaments from Poland. Very beautiful ornaments. So when Gargoyles Studio shut down, then, Mia hired me because I was doing good work for her. I stood with her for about 15 years.

And then eventually, you know, as the years went by, and you know, what happens is, like, people now, these days, they don't want to spend money. They don't look for quality. Now, this is like, everything is getting imported from China, Korea, the Philippines.

You know, the cheapest the cost, that's where they're going to get it from, you know. But, years ago, nobody was buying nothing until they turned it over and it said, made in the USA. And I remember I used to put USA stickers on the 00:21:00statutes. You know, now, it's like, you know there's not enough money out there, so people have to buy what they can afford.

So then eventually when Mia closed down, I said, you know what? I'm not going to work no more because it's hard to get a job that you qualify for. You know, you qualify for something, they're not going to give you that because they don't want to give you the money that you're worth.

So I said, you know what? My time is up. I'm already over 60. I'm going to go onto Social Security Disability and stay in the neighborhood, take care of Brook Park, which I've been there for like, I don't know how many years. But I remember, I used to be there, pff, before it was Brook Park. I used to do barbecues and birthday parties back there for me and the family.

So now I stay at Brook Park. We stay in the community, and help out the community, and you know, wherever I'm needed because we do need people in the 00:22:00community to [INAUDIBLE]. We have to give to the community because if not, we lose it. You know, we lose the experience, and the history, and all the good things that we had and that we lived through.

And then, you know, also, we could pass it on to the new generation now because there's a lot of kids out there that are lost, and either they don't have parents, or they've got bad parenting, or they want to-- they think they know it all. They want to do whatever they want to do. And that's not right, you know? Unless you have good role models to help you. and life is good.

AMY STARECHESKI: I'm going to go back to the beginning. Can you tell me a little bit more about your parents?

CHERVONI: So let me see. My father was like-- he was over 6 feet tall, dark 00:23:00skin. And my mother was-- [CHUCKLES] my mother wasn't even 5 feet, and she was short and chubby. But oh, my Lord. I buried her. I buried her. She was, oh, like, the best, the best.

So, yeah, so I remember more when I was in the Bronx because my mother had nine boys and two girls. And I know from them, not like, you know, my mother and my father were sleeping around. No way. You know, there wasn't time for that because what happened was, you know, some families, didn't have TVs, so what else was there to do? You know, make kids.

But I remember, when I was a little kid, my father used to tell me-- used to send me to the closet. I forgot what he used to tell me, but we had a black-and-white TV. And he had this piece of plastic that was red. It was 00:24:00yellow, red, and green, or yellow, red, and blue, one of those three colors. And we would put it in front of the black-and-white TV to get color.

And then eventually, he bought a TV home with a remote control. I'm talking about, every time you hit the control, it was like starting a car. It was so noisy. And it was big, man. It was like, I don't know, almost like the size of a shoe, the bit remote control.

But, yeah, I'm trying to-- so my father worked in a hotel. And I don't think my mother was working yet until we moved to the Bronx because she worked 20-something years in Harlem Hospital. Because I remember when I was a kid, she used to take me any time I was sick because I was born with asthma.

She told me that when I was born, I didn't cry. I was sneezing. I was sneezing 00:25:00or coughing. I wasn't crying. Like, they would slap me, I was coughing and sneezing, I wasn't crying. You know, I was trying to breathe. So I've had asthma all my life, and I still have it. But, yeah, she worked in Harlem Hospital.

AMY STARECHESKI: Were your parents from New York?

CHERVONI: No, they were both from Puerto Rico. Both from Puerto Rico. I think my mother was-- I think my mother was adopted. Yeah. And you know what? I was never into history. Like, people say, "yo, what part of Puerto Rico?" I don't care. You know, they were from Puerto Rico, that's it. From the island, you know? That's what counted for me. But I never really asked, And if I did, I probably forgot.

AMY STARECHESKI: What year were you born?

CHERVONI: '56.

AMY STARECHESKI: And what was it like having so many brothers and sisters? You had, what, eight brothers and two sisters?

CHERVONI: It was-- well, yeah, eight brothers and two sisters. And it was funny 00:26:00because we're survivors. We survived. Like, there wasn't money to buy brand new sneakers. So when my brother outgrew his, I grew into his sneakers. And believe me, I had sneakers where they had holes on the bottom. And we used to put cardboard inside our sneakers.

And whoever didn't have socks would have to wear the socks from the older person, the older brother. And I remember, I used to put on my older brother's socks. And I would have to put it on till I got the heel to my heel and take the front of it, where it was like 3 or 4 inches long, and fold it under my foot to put my foot inside the sneakers with the cardboard.

You know my sisters had it made because there was only two girls, you know? But the brothers, like, we all-- each of us was wearing each other's hand-me-downs. 00:27:00And we used to fight. Oh, my lord. You know how that is. You know. Like my mother would say, and other people would say, whoever screams the loudest gets the milk first. Yeah.

And I remember, my parents worked, but I think we were also getting public assistance, where my mother used to get, like, they would give these food, like, a block of cheese. They would give a can of pork. We'd get powdered milk, powdered eggs.

And my mother would take a bag of powdered milk and make, like, 4 gallons of milk out of it. At that time, it was delicious, you know? And we were real small. It was delicious. It was good. And they call it survival from back in the days.

AMY STARECHESKI: You said you used to go back and forth between Williamsburg and 00:28:00the Bronx because your cousins were here?

CHERVONI: Right, yeah. My cousins lived on 141st Street. And we used to go back and forth, you know, visiting, and, then, go back to Brooklyn, and back and forth. Until I remember, one day, we packed up all our stuff, and we moved to the Bronx.

AMY STARECHESKI: What did this neighborhood seem like when you first started coming here?

CHERVONI: You know, there was less cars. A lot of kids playing in the streets. It was-- you know -- it was more like a community. It was like, I couldn't do nothing bad. Forget it. You know, I'd probably get a whipping before I get home. I would get scolded five times. You know, we were taught when we were small to respect, not to be cursing, and, you know, respect people. But it was more a community.

You know, and in the schools, too. In the schools, you went in there to learn, 00:29:00not to play. It was good. It was nice. You know, we did kid things. Not like now. Kids are looking to do something, but there's nobody to do it with them. You know, they're just like lost in the sauce, you know like in a whirlpool. Because, now, these days, there's nothing being done with-- especially with the technology now, everybody wants to be on a cell phone.

AMY STARECHESKI: What kind of stuff did you do? You talked about flipping on mattresses. What other kinds of stuff did you do, like at the playground and with your friends when you were a kid?

CHERVONI: We used to hang out on the rooftops, fly pigeons. We used to fly kites. We used to go to the river, swimming. We used to get on our bicycles. We used to get on our bicycles and go to [INAUDIBLE] Bay on bicycle, no trains. You 00:30:00know and these were bikes that we built, you know? And everybody had, like, either a pair of pliers, a hammer. We all carried tools because we had to repair our bikes. These weren't new bikes. These were bikes we made.

And we used to play in the parks. We used to play stoop ball, basketball, football, a round of ringalevio. We used to play-- you know. There was a lot of games that we played. We played in the park. Had this thing called monkey bars where we used to climb up on it. I haven't seen one of those in, pff, in ages, unless it's on the TV or in a picture of a magazine.

But a lot of playing in the parks. A lot of playing in the parks. And that's why we need parks, for kids to actually play. And not just for kids, for elderly people, too. You know, and for parents, too, because they get to come out the 00:31:00house and have a good time with their kids.

AMY STARECHESKI: Can you try to walk me through a day in your life when you were a little kid? Like, maybe a day when you go over to the Bronx Kill and catch crabs, and you wake up, like, what do you have for breakfast? How do you find your friends?

CHERVONI: Yeah, so we would get up in the morning, and, ooh, oh, my lord, this is-- oh, so let me see. We would actually get up in the morning and fight to get dressed. Oh my lord. We would fight to get dressed, like, what I'm gonna wear. You know, because there were so many of us going back and forth, putting on our clothes. And you know you got to get in the bathroom, wash your face, and [INAUDIBLE] who were not doing that.

You know, I used to go in the bathroom. They'd say, go in the bathroom, wash your face, and brush your teeth. I would take two drops-- I would take my two fingers and stick them in the water, just clean my eyes, and that's it. I wasn't 00:32:00brushing my teeth. I wasn't doing none of that or combing my hair. You know, we didn't care when we were kids. You know, get dressed and run out the door to school.

And we would go to school by ourselves. It was OK at that time, you know. And, then, you know, we would come back and sneak into the park. We would sneak into the park with our school clothes, you know. And if we got dirty, we would get a whipping. We would get beat for going to the park with our school clothes. And we knew, if we go upstairs, we might not be able to come down, you know.

So we would go to the park and either play basketball, or Johnny-on-the-pony, or ringolevio, if there was enough people to play. You know and, then, eventually, if we heard somebody hollering, everybody would think it was them. And everybody started like, yo, who's that? Who's that? And either one person would run out 00:33:00the park because that's the person they were calling, it would be his parents.

But we would be in the park as long as we can until we got in trouble or when it started getting dark in those-- either we'd leave the park when it started getting dark or as soon as those lights came on. And, then, eventually, we go home and get a beating or, if not, you know we get a break. We tried to do our homework in the school, sneakin' it in the school so we don't have to go home and do it. Or we'd have to go home and do our homework and stay in the house, you know.

AMY STARECHESKI: What was your apartment like?

CHERVONI: Oh, it's just one of those-- you like the apartment I'm living in now? One of those, they call it like the railroad apartment that's long. Yeah. I remember, when we were kids, we used to, there'd be, like, five or six of us. And we would go to each other's house. We would go to each other's house either to use the bathroom or to eat.

And as soon as we'd come in the house, we would find like, a corner, and we'd just throw all our coats in the corner. There wasn't no, where's the closet, hang up my coat. We would all stack them up in the corner. And it was good in those days because the parents were, pff, you know, they didn't care. You know, if one person could eat, everybody could eat.

And I remember, they used to have-- we used to have the little metal cups. They come in colors. There's a song. There's a song, I think Gran Combo sings it. And they say, "vaso en colores," which is the cups of colors. And these are all metal, steel cups-- blue, purple, green, orange.

And we didn't have money to buy cups. You opened up a can of soup today, well, that can was going to be a cup. So you went into anybody's house and they were making coffee, drinking, they would all be metal cups from the soups or from 00:35:00Carnation milk or whatever.

And then we would go from house to house. And then, it was all like a little click, like a little gang of guys. We used to go to each other's house, and then we used to go to the parks. And we had a good time. It was nice. I would like to go back, backwards, and enjoy some more of those days, especially swimming in the river.

I remember, we used to get our bikes. I don't even know-- well, it had to be like 132nd, all the way down there by the river, where there was-- like, before the oil furnaces came out, it was coal. And there was a company over there that had coals, and we used to call that the coal mines. And when we used to get there, there was a fence. And then on the fence, there was a whole bunch of 00:36:00doors aligned with the fence so the coal wouldn't come through the fence.

And then we used to hide our bikes like in the bushes because there was older guys, older teenagers than us that wanted to steal our bicycles. So we used to hide our bicycles. And then we used to climb up the fence. And, then, we used to step into the coals. And the coals is like a mountain of stone, like a mountain of sand, where your feet starts to sink in it.

And then we had to be quiet because there were stray dogs back there, like five, six, seven stray dogs. And they bite. And we were, like, sh. And, then, we would be quiet. And we'd start, like, walking down the coal. And our feet are like sinking into the coal while we're walking down.

And as soon as we hear the first bark, we start running. We start running like oh, my lord, real scared to death. And we start running down the coal, and across the field, over the train tracks, and eventually, the dogs won't chase us 00:37:00no more. They'd go but so far. And then we would run all the way to the river. And then, we'd find the spot where we were going to swim.

And it's funny because we used to go under a bridge, and they had the freight trains, the trains used to go on top. And we would go under a bridge, and there was, like, a concrete piece that went right to the water. And we would walk on top of it. And right underneath the concrete slab was like a big block. There was a pipe. And there was eels in the water.

We didn't know. We went-- oh, my lord. So we used to swim with the eels. There was eels going in and out of the pipe. So I don't remember if they would stay-- if they would go back in the pipe or they would be swimming with us. But we didn't pay it no mind because I still don't remember. But I remember the eels.

And we used to all take off our clothes, and we all were wearing Superman underwear, called the Fruit of the Loom, the white ones. Yeah. And we used to-- oh, it was beautiful. We used to swim in there. My brother-in-law saved a kid one time because we told him, "don't jump in with your jeans. Don't go in there with your sneakers or your jeans." And he was like, you know, he didn't listen. He didn't listen.

And he was jumping in, jumping out. And then one time, he jumped in and wasn't jumping in and out and. And like, "yo, where's this guy at?" And he was stuck on a box-spring. And my brother-in-law, he dived in and pulled him out. His pants were stuck on a box-spring because, in the river, people were dumping shopping carts, and mattresses, and furniture, and everything you know.

And we were just having a good time. We used to come up with little guppy fishes, little crabs. Oh my-- I used to bring back the blueberries. My mother 00:39:00used to make jam. She used to make jam. We were eating what? We were eating blueberries, pears, and apples. Yeah, that was it.

Yeah, we used to eat them in the river. There wasn't enough to eat all the time because we just ate what we, you know, we were hungry. That was it. It wasn't like to bring it home. But the blueberries I used to bring home. My mother used to make jam from me. Oh, excuse me.

AMY STARECHESKI: Do you want some more water?

CHERVONI: No, I'm all right. [SETS GLASS DOWN] Thank you.

AMY STARECHESKI: So is this, like, over by the Hell Gate Railroad Bridge?

CHERVONI: I think it is.

AMY STARECHESKI: Like where the-- between the Bronx and Randalls Island? Or is it like over by--

CHERVONI: I know it's on our side.

AMY STARECHESKI: On our side. So, like, where there's that little water between here and Randalls Island, or is it more like the sound, looking out towards Brother's Island?

CHERVONI: I don't think it-- you know what? I think it's closer towards Brook 00:40:00Avenue somewhere because we weren't going too far.

AMY STARECHESKI: Ok. Yeah.

CHERVONI: We weren't going too far. And there was a lot of-- there was truckloads of coals you know like I don't ever remember an oil truck in those days. And if you walk-- and I could show you-- if you walk through 140th, right, because it's only where the big buildings are at that have these steel gates in front of the buildings.

You can actually see where a door is cut out on the bars where they used to put the-- where the coal truck would park, like a cement truck, and put the plank. And they would shoot the coal down into that little area. And then I actually would come out of the basement with a wheelbarrow, and fill up the wheelbarrow, and take it all the way to the back into one room and fill it up.

And as I needed coal to put into the boiler, I would fill up a wheelbarrow, bring it in, and shovel it into the boiler. And every once in a while, I would 00:41:00be outside playing, and next thing I know, there's no water, no heat. I said, "oh, the boiler turned off!" And that's what happened, the boiler turned off. I had to go through the neighborhood to find wooden chairs, tables, beds, because everything was made out of wood in them days.

And I would have to throw it in there and get a couple of newspapers, any type of paper, and build it up, and start a fire. And as soon as I started a fire in the boiler, then, I could start shoveling some coal little by little, little and get the furnace burning again. But I would get in trouble when it turned off. They complained to my father. [CHUCKLES]

AMY STARECHESKI: Do you know who was your landlord?

CHERVONI: No. No.

AMY STARECHESKI: What was like the-- you know what did the neighborhood look like back then?

CHERVONI: Well, oh, my lord. There was some-- what was it? There was Irish. No. 00:42:00I remember, when I was a kid, when I was a kid, I used to walk to the corner, I'd go around the corner, and there was a pub. There was also an ice cream parlor. And I used to go in there and get milkshakes.

But I'm talking about the real-- no, it wasn't even-- it was egg creams. They were called egg creams, with the long spoon and seltzer water. And, yeah, I'm trying to think. There was-- I don't think it was Greek. It was Irish or-- it wasn't Italians. Yeah, but there were some bars. There were pubs. There was ice cream parlors around. The good humor, you know, the guy pushing the cart with the [INAUDIBLE], yeah.

It wasn't -- yeah-- There wasn't that many bodegas. My mother had one, too. My mother had one right there on 141st Street. OK. Let me see. There's one building left on 141st Street, going toward the corner of Willis Avenue. The building's number is 404. It's the only building standing of all the big buildings.

And my mother, there was a-- the next building, let me see. Wait up. No. It was-- OK. So where the drugstore's at, there was a big building there, right on the corner. And there was, underneath it, my mother had a grocery store, and there was also a tire shop that used to fix tires and sell drugs out of there. But my mother had a grocery store there, too.

AMY STARECHESKI: Like, she ran the grocery store?

CHERVONI: She owned it. We had a little grocery store. I remember, I used to be behind the counter selling them pig feet. Pig feet and sausages. [CHUCKLES]

Yeah. Take the money out of the cash register, and I used to share with my friends, make sandwiches, you know. I had a big German shepherd. One of my best dogs-- like a police dog. Canine German shepherd. I used to feed him like-- he was in the basement, and I would cook his food. I would feed a two-pound box of Carolina rice. Like, five cans of vegetables and three cans of [INAUDIBLE] dog food. So he got a big pot. This dog was huge. And he lived in the basement.

Yeah, so my mother had the grocery store. And then I was-- forget it. You know, kids will be kids. I didn't want to take care of no grocery store. I'd just 00:45:00going in there to take money, and eat, and share with my friends. And, and then when I had to work it, I had to work the day with my mother, but pff. If we knew then what we know now, oh, forget it, you know? It'd be a better world. We wouldn't have to go through what we're going through now.

AMY STARECHESKI: When you came here and you started going to school, the kids in your class, was it mostly Puerto Rican kids? Were there still Irish kids around here?

CHERVONI: No, it was more Puerto Rican and Black. I don't remember Irish kids. I don't remember. I know when I was a kid, I hated school. I used to fight in school. I had this kid-- we used to go to typing class. And every time we went to typing class, we would push the tables apart and fight right there in the 00:46:00center of the classroom, and the teacher watching us, too. Eventually, we became best of friends, to this day. [LAUGHS]

AMY STARECHESKI: During the time that you've been here, a lot of buildings became abandoned or burned down, the vacant lots. When did all that start? Was that starting already when you got here, or did it start later?

CHERVONI: No, it started later on because of the drugs you know, and landlords, like, there were supers, but landlords, I don't remember meeting any landlords. Probably, we didn't even know what landlords was. But eventually, it was because of people moving it out, and then, because of the drugs, people moving in.

And Supers would probably be, they'd be down with the dealers. Like, they wasn't getting nobody to move into the new apartment, the apartment that's empty, that 00:47:00the drugs-- you know, I did it myself, too. When I was dealing, I had two apartments where people would go in and use drugs, you know. Then, they would leave, go home, and you know.

So the apartments, eventually, what happened was that people were moving out. People weren't moving in. And then with the drugs and the violence, some apartments, they got so bad where-- I don't remember actual, like, for me, the buildings were getting burned for insurance, because you know, the people that were there wouldn't want to burn it down because they're living in them.

So for me, actually, the landlords would actually have them burned. That's the only way they're going to get their building or get the insurance. You know what? They burned the building down on me, you know. And then eventually, they 00:48:00didn't know-- I don't know how the system was that there's still some of the buildings up, you know?

And the structure's so strong, but the city probably didn't know what to do. They started knocking the buildings down. And there was-- I figure for two reasons. Knock them down because they didn't know what to do, and knock them down so they wouldn't be re-used you know by dealers, I don't know, addicts, or homeless people that were living in them.

But, yeah. When I moved from Brooklyn to the Bronx, all the buildings were up, you know. All the apartments were full, you know. We used to go to the ice cream parlors, and we used to go to the pool hall, play pool. We used to go rent videos, you know the, what, VHSs? Yeah. There was a lot going on back in the 00:49:00days. And you'd get in trouble if you disrespected any elderly people, or girls, or be fighting, or any of that stuff. If you did, you'd be in trouble.

AMY STARECHESKI: Why do you think it changed?

CHERVONI: Oh. (long pause) It's like-- I don't know. You know, I think life, it has to go either one way or the other. It has to go up or down. It has to get better, or get worse to get better, or get better, and then eventually, it gets worse because, like they say, good things don't last forever.

I don't know. It could have been the slumlords, politicians. I don't know. Even the police department. Police, oh, forget it. Pff. Police department was so corrupted. Oh, my lord. It's like, you know, so. In those days, you had good stuff and bad stuff. Let's see what happens now. [CHUCKLES]

AMY STARECHESKI: [CHUCKLES]

What was it like living here when all that started, like, with the-- yeah, with just what-- how old were you? Probably an older teenager, huh?

CHERVONI: Yeah.

AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah? Even when I first came here, there still was not that many fires. It kind of had settled down. So I just never have lived through that. And I'm interested in what it was like to live here during that period.

CHERVONI: It was-- it was-- it was like normal. Yeah, because, you see, what happens is, it's like if we moved to the Amazon jungle, it was, like, oh, oh, what's going on here? But if you actually live in a neighborhood, and these houses, and next thing you know, as the years go by, the violence, the burning the buildings and everything, eventually, it's like pff a normal thing to you. Now, the buildings are burned.

And you could go on the computer, and you could see like, I got friends of mine. They post pictures up. And you can see the old neighborhoods where you didn't have to go around the corner from 139th Street to 145th, you didn't even have-- 00:52:00you could go through the alleys, through the backyards, between the buildings, and nobody would ever know that you're on 145th because they had so many alleyways and backyards, and everything, climbing over the fences.

And empty lots where buildings were knocked down. You know, some buildings were knocked down early. Some buildings, the apartments were burned out, the buildings were burned down, and they stood there for a while. I don't know what made them, all of a sudden, they knocked down one or two. The rest of them stayed.

But, yeah, and, then, you start-- it's like a normal thing. It's like a normal thing. You know, it's like people now, they live in projects. The projects, it's not the projects, it's the people. And they're used to seeing the violence. And 00:53:00it's a regular thing for them [INAUDIBLE]. And it's terrible, but that's life. You get used to it. You get used to it, and you become part of it.

AMY STARECHESKI: Were the projects already here when you got here?

CHERVONI: No. The projects, I started seeing the foundation-- I saw the foundation of those projects. Yeah. My mother-in-law lives in one of them. She'll be 96 next month. And she's been living there a long time. But yeah, but when we moved over here, I don't even remember what was there.

But we started seeing the foundation of the projects. And the projects weren't even there. So you could actually see the bulldozers and everything starting to build the projects. I don't remember anything that was there.

AMY STARECHESKI: What did people think about it?

CHERVONI: About the projects? Oh, pff they loved it. You know, the projects was-- I had a friend of mine, he said, [CHUCKLES] he said, what was it? He was down with the revolution. He said, the projects, all it is is, eventually, when we go to war, the projects are going to be concentration camps because there's only one way in and one way out.

And this is the older guys. Like, I could be like 14 years old. This is a guy 40-something, 50-something, and he's talking about-- and that's when the Young Lords and the Black Panthers-- when I came to the Bronx, I saw the Young Lords and the Black Panthers.

I was young. I would see them, like, marching around the neighborhood, and doing demonstrations, and all that. But, yeah, the projects was like, they're building 00:55:00a new building? Oh, cool, you know? And like I say, it's never the buildings, it's the people, you know. Everybody wanted to move in there.

AMY STARECHESKI: Did people in the projects and people in the apartments mix?

CHERVONI: Yeah. Yes. Yes, they did. Yeah, yeah, because then eventually, wasn't the Irish, or whoever they were, there wasn't no more in the neighborhood. They started moving out. It's like in Williamsburg, when I was living, you can go back to Williamsburg, and there's still a lot of Jewish people there. Yeah. It's like they glued down, you know? It's like they ain't going nowhere without a battle.

But yeah, the projects, oh, forget it. I remember, when I was a teenager, I used 00:56:00to run to the top floor. We had energy like forget it, you know? And we used to go to the roof and everything. We used to go to everybody's house. And there was a lot of socializing in those days. Not now, forget it. Yeah, there was a lot of socializing. The elderly people, like, they were more kind. They had more heart, you know. Now, there's that thing where I don't care.

AMY STARECHESKI: It says that on your shirt.

[LAUGHTER]

CHERVONI: Yes, it does. I remember one time, I saw two kids fighting, man. And I told-- and this is not-- this is a couple-- maybe 5, 10 years ago. I didn't even have a cell phone. And I told the lady, listen, you got a phone, call the 00:57:00police. She says, "not on my phone." I said, "why?" She says, "this is my phone. That's none of my business." I said, "if it was your son getting beat up, you'd want somebody to call the police, right?" And it's like, pff, you know?

But yeah there was a lot of socializing back in the days. You know, even though there was also gangs, but the gangs were territorial, and they respected each other. It wasn't like all-out was with the gangs. No, it wasn't like that. It wasn't.

And you know what initiation was in a gang? They take the guy, and they beat him up. They take the one that wants to be in the gang, and they beat him up. And that's it. Not, oh, here, take a razor blade, and go hurt somebody. No. It wasn't like that, you know. And back in those days, it was cool to be in a gang. But you got respect, and they respected each other. It wasn't like an all-out 00:58:00war. And there was a lot of socializing. [INAUDIBLE]. It was good.

AMY STARECHESKI: What did you think about the Young Lords and the Black Panthers when you saw them marching around?

CHERVONI: I didn't pay too much mind to it. As I started getting older, I was like, cool, you know? They were fighting for the community you know and against the government because, you know, racist things that they were doing, you know. Like, you know I don't know if you had to be light skinned, or white, or whatever to get help, you know.

And then the racists, the police department just going around, and anybody has dark skin, you know they took advantage of them. You know, arresting people, harassing people, beating people down for just the color of their skin. Think everybody's a criminal, you know. I've had it happen to me, too, you know years 00:59:00ago. And, then, they realized, like, they're wrong. So, you know, everybody's not a criminal.

AMY STARECHESKI: Why do you think all the white people left this neighborhood?

CHERVONI: But it's not just whites, too, but, you know, maybe it could be, too, that probably they didn't like the Blacks or the Hispanics that were moving in, or the neighborhood was getting bad. Or maybe they wanted control of the neighborhood.

Or they just wanted to move out, you know to a better neighborhood. Or the neighborhood was getting bad, you know. And pff and if I had my choices, I'd 01:00:00probably move out, too, because you want the best thing for you and your family, you know. And now, [CHUCKLES] everybody's coming back. The Bronx is up for sale.

AMY STARECHESKI: Tell me about it. Like, what do you notice now that's different?

CHERVONI: In a way, I like it. In a way, I don't, you know. It's like-- Let's appreciate the Bronx for what it is and what it used to be because, in order for it to be like it is, what happened years ago had to happen. So now it's like-- I don't mind, you know like-- I don't have nothing against-- listen, for me, 01:01:00everybody is the same color. I don't even judge people by their color. I judge people the way they treat me you know and treat other people. That's it.

You know we should all share the space, and not try to take it over, and try to judge people where, you shouldn't be here because of this and that and that and this. I really, I don't know. Then, you got the rich people that want to move in because all they think about is money.

And they really don't care if we move out. They'd rather have us move out so they can take it over. And what are you going to do with that money when you die? You know it's like, I'd rather have no money and be happy than to have a lot of money and be miserable. Like, miserable people that do, that come into 01:02:00the Bronx, and want to just take over.

You've got to try to go with the flow, the best you can.

AMY STARECHESKI: When did the neighborhood start to you know, when did it start to feel like it was getting better? However you-- I want to know what you would mean by better, too.

CHERVONI: Yeah, better in a sense where-- better in the sense where the neighborhood is being taken care of. You know, things are-- vacant-- vacant buildings, and vacant stores or businesses are being reopened, and getting 01:03:00something out of it because it has to happen. I don't know if--when-- it started going on, what, I don't know, maybe it could be 10 years. 10 years or more. Where it started gradually, little by little, started getting better.

You know and then eventually, as it gets better, the bad people that are ruining the neighborhood, like they can't stick around. They don't want to get caught. It's like, we got a bucket of apples, and there's like, five bad apples.

The rest of the apples are going to rot. But if you keep putting good apples in 01:04:00there, the rotten ones, eventually, they're going to have to disappear. They're thrown out. But the neighborhood is going to change, little by little. And it's for the best.

AMY STARECHESKI: What was it like for you to come back here after going down to-- was it Alabama-- for two months to get sober--

CHERVONI: Oh, yeah.

AMY STARECHESKI: --and, then, coming back to this neighborhood? What was that like?

CHERVONI: Well, I felt better because I got clean, you know. And then, it was like I had to separate myself because I said, I can't live that lifestyle no more. And I also tried to help a lot of the people. I've saved lives, you know. There's lives that I tried to save, and I couldn't do it because it's up to do the individual.

But then I realized what's going on, and I was like, you know what? I can't be 01:05:00in it no more. So I have to run my own life. I have to do what's best for me and my family, and my friends, and whoever else wants to be involved, but you know-- you start--

Sometimes, when a person is doing bad, that's all they see. That's all they see. And they think everything should be bad and is bad. Until they start doing good, then, they realize, wow, you know? Now, I see-- you know because like, now, you have addicts in the street. Like, they don't realize how they look, you know until you approach them and say, listen, this is what's going-- like, no. I said, yeah, it is.

So then I came back, and I was like, OK, now, I see what's going on. And I bettered myself. I had to do something because, if not, it's like, if you don't 01:06:00take care of yourself, who's going to take care of you? You know it's up to the individual. You have to do what you got to do.

AMY STARECHESKI: And when did you get married?

CHERVONI: Well, I never did. But I've been with my wife, oh, my lord, since 1990. Yeah. 1990. That was when I came out of the penitentiary. Yeah. I went upstate like three times for drugs and weapons. And I came home in 1990 the last time, and I was like, you know what? I'm not going back to jail. I'm going to get me a job. I'm going to get me a job.

And, eventually, I had a job, and I was using drugs. And then eventually, I realized, well, I was going down the drain with the drug use. And then that's 01:07:00when I-- there was times I couldn't even sleep, and my wife would say, "you all right? You want to go to the hospital?" I said, "no, I'm OK. I'm OK."

I used to walk to Fordham Road and back just to get tired so I could sleep because a heroin addict, if they don't use heroin to go to sleep, they will never sleep. Their bodies are too uncomfortable. So that's why they got to look for a fix when they get up and when they go to sleep. So eventually I went away, and I got clean and came back. But was with-- I've been with my wife since 1990. Since I came out of the penitentiary.

AMY STARECHESKI: How did you guys meet?

CHERVONI: So I grew up with her brothers. She's-- she's seven years older than me. Yeah. People say, how-- I say, she took advantage of me. So but what it was, 01:08:00there was-- so I used to hang out with her brother. Her brother used to come from Newburgh.

And we used to hang out, and we used to drink beer, and play basketball, and listen to music because I used to DJ at that time. I still got my equipment. But at that time, I was DJing more, like every day. And then I used to hang out in my wife's house when her brother used to come from Newburgh.

And at that time, my asthma was bad. So there was times where I would be at her house waiting for him to come, and he wouldn't show up. And you know my asthma was bad, so she would take care of me. She would make me tea, and give me a Vicks rub on my chest and everything.

And then eventually, I would go home. And, then, there was times that he would come over, and, then, we would hang out in her house. And then eventually, he wasn't showing up, and one thing led to another, and we fell in love, and you 01:09:00know that was it. And I tell people, no, she took advantage of me. That's what she did, you know.

And she's a retired social worker. She worked 32 years. Single parent. She's done a lot for me. I think, you know, I say, if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be here now because, at one time, I was using. She could have put me out. She could have said, listen, you're a drug addict. I don't want you here.

One thing about me, I would never steal. You could trust me with anything. If it's not mines, I don't want it. It's not mine to be taking. And there was times that I would be sick, and I didn't have no money, I'd go borrow money or whatever. And she would tell me, "you need money?" I said, "no, I'm OK. I'm OK. I'm OK."

Then, eventually, I told her one time, I said, listen, you know, I cried, too. I said, "listen, I got to go." She said, "but where are you going?" I said, "I'm going to Alabama. I'm going to my mother's house." I packed up two briefcases. I 01:10:00took them to my job. I told my boss-- and I was a supervisor, 39 employees. I said, listen-- he said, "where are you going?" I said, "I have to leave."

And he grew up in the Village, one of my bosses. And he danced for the-- he was in the play, "West Side Story." So he knew about addicts, AIDS, the gay population, when they were having unsafe sex, and the AIDS, and all that stuff, and drugs. So he knew about all that stuff.

So I told him, listen, I got to go away. He says, OK. And I told him, listen, can I get my job? He said, you'll always have a job here. I said, all I need is one favor. I don't want no money, I just need a plane ticket. He called the airport, had a ticket for me. I went to Alabama without a round-trip ticket. Stayed there a couple of months and came back and never looked back again. 01:11:00Stayed clean. Because that drug has taken lives.

You know, I remember, back in the days, on 141st Street, one of my friends' older brother died, and it was AIDS. And at that time, nobody knew what AIDS was. And people were actually dying. They were saying that they died from either flu, pneumonia, you know, some type of sickness. But the word AIDS was never even mentioned, or they never invented the word AIDS, you know or never knew about the disease. And people were actually dying like flies. And that's what it was.

AMY STARECHESKI: When was it that you got sober, about?

CHERVONI: OK. [INAUDIBLE] 1990. About I think it was '93. Yeah. About '93.

AMY STARECHESKI: 25 years.

CHERVONI: Yeah. I got friends of mines that are still doing it. And I've got 01:12:00friends that I helped get into detoxes. They come out, and they stay clean and they, they consider me like their father, like an angel in the sky. And, then, I got friends that I, pff, they did it again. And I told them, "listen, don't worry about it." It doesn't matter how many times you fall. It matters if you get back up. You got to get back up out of it.

And I always told myself, I said, listen, if I go back into it, I'd rather put a gun to my head because there's a lot of sick and suffering in that. And if you don't believe me, all you have to do is stand on the corner, or grab a chair, sit somewhere, and you'll see the activity of the addicts in the neighborhoods, where they're homeless, they're stealing, they're hungry, you know. It's 01:13:00terrible. It's terrible. It's terrible.

And the government is not helping, you know. It's bad, you know. And I've heard it a couple of times already, when AIDS came out, and the drugs was heavy, you know it wasn't a disease. Now, there's going upstate all these white kids that are using drugs and taking pills, and, now it's just a disease. And, now, the government wants to give money to help. And I was like, they wouldn't care about us. So now they see how it is when their kids, they start using drugs.

AMY STARECHESKI: You said you used to do birthday parties and stuff at Brook 01:14:00Park or the place that's now Brook Park?

CHERVONI: Yeah.

AMY STARECHESKI: First of all, do you remember when there was buildings there?

CHERVONI: Yes.

AMY STARECHESKI: And do you remember when the buildings came down?

CHERVONI: No, I don't. I'm trying to think. No, the only thing I remember is a good-- because my friend lives in one of those matchbox houses. [INAUDIBLE]. So, yeah, those houses, I think they were all put up at least, from 10 to 15 years ago. Yeah. I saw them come in on trailers. They just stack them on top of each other.

But I don't-- years ago, the house, the big buildings, they were coming down one at a time. I used to knock them down, too. When the bulldozer would come and take down one of the-- half of the buildings, we would be up in there with these metal bars that used to be between the bricks. And we used to be, like, hitting the bricks and acting like we were construction workers. But I never really remember when the buildings came down.

AMY STARECHESKI: When did people first start hanging out there?

CHERVONI: Where?

AMY STARECHESKI: At Brook Park, or at that land that's now Brook Park?

CHERVONI: I found-- because my wife's cousin's-- no, my wife's aunt's son passed away the other day. And so she started going through pictures because they asked 01:16:00for some of his pictures for the funeral this weekend. And I said, pass me some photo albums. I'll go through them. And I started seeing pictures of me, my stepdaughter, and her friend, and my dogs in Brook Park with asphalt. It has the asphalt, and I can see the fake-- what was it? So they a fake train and a firetruck. And what it was, it was just pieces of wood, metal frame, with big truck tires on top of the grass. And the rest of the whole park was all asphalt.

I remember the grass was high. And at night, you could hear the addicts, the homeless, stray dogs in there. And there was rats all over the place. So 01:17:00eventually, I used to walk my dogs around the neighborhood. I saw this white guy in the park over there. I was like, what that white guy's doing in that park? And I kept seeing that every day.

I went over there, and I saw the guy. And I saw them planting. I said, cool. That's good. That's good for the neighborhood. And then, eventually, I started hanging around. And they invited me. I said, cool. Let me go hang out. Let me go hang out and see what's going on in there. And then eventually I became part of the clan. They were over there planting trees.

And then they started getting volunteers, you know, a lot of people. Most of them were white. You know there might be a Spanish guy in there or an African American. And these were nice people, nice, respectable people. And I'm like, I'm not used to that, you know? I'm from the hood. We're used to cursing and not treating people good, you know?

And I said, wow, these people are cool, you know. And I started helping them. And I started planting, and planting, and planting. And eventually, Brook Park turned into Friends of Brook Park. And then, we started having parties in there and barbecues and you know turned it into a community garden.

AMY STARECHESKI: Who was that white guy?

CHERVONI: A guy named Harry. A guy named Harry and a whole bunch of other 01:19:00people. The Botanical Garden got involved. Then, they had CSA, farmers markets. So these are actual people moved, some from the community, some just visiting the community, looking for good energy places like gardens.

You know, a park is a park. A park's got swings and see-saws. It's good for the kids. You know, good activities. But gardens are nice because gardens, you have trees, and you can plant vegetables. You have fruit trees. You get to play. And you get to grow things and learn about nature because, eventually, you never know what happens.

People need to learn to grow their own vegetables, the food they consume, so 01:20:00they wouldn't have to be buying, and buying, and buying all the time. And it's better and fresher, and it's organic. It don't have all these pesticides on it. So Brook Park was a good thing. It was good that it happened.

Need things like that in all the communities instead of, there's a lot, and, all of a sudden, you think about a garden, next thing you know, you go to sleep and wake up, and there's a building there. And the Bronx needs a lot of trees to clean all this-- filterize the air and the pollution that we're breathing in.

AMY STARECHESKI: I know you've probably got to go. I don't want to take too much of your time, but I have, like, two more questions. Is that OK?

CHERVONI: Sure.

AMY STARECHESKI: OK. You mentioned the matchbox houses.

CHERVONI: Yeah.

AMY STARECHESKI: Tell me about the matchbox houses. Like, when did they start? What did you think about them? Who lives in them?

CHERVONI: So I was on 140, where I live. And I started seeing these trailers coming in. I'm like, what's going on? And then I realized they were parking on 141st Street. And these were houses. And they were, like, just like boxes, but they would actually stack them on top of each other.

And these are those houses that they're asking $300,000, $400,000 for. I don't know what's the price now. But I wouldn't live because I've been in them. And you can hear everything. You can hear people walking, talking. So what they did, they stacked them on top of each other. And they have-- people think that they're very sturdy, they're expensive, they're good quality, and they're not.

They got bricks on the outside, and they're not actually bricks. They call it, 01:22:00what is it, face-- brick face or something. And the bricks, it's not even a brick. It's like a tile. And it's like a 1/2-inch tile. And what they do, they actually glue them on and put mortar between them like grout and make it look like a brick house, when it's not actually brick.

And they stacked them up, and they put them on 141st Street from the garden all the way towards Willis Avenue. So those are the new houses they're putting up all over the neighborhood, wherever there's space. And, now they're upgrading. They're doing something else. I don't know what it is, but they're not looking the same anymore. So we call them matchboxes. They look like a little box of 01:23:00matches. The wooden matches would come in a little, sAmy Starecheskiuare box.

AMY STARECHESKI: Who put them up? Do you know?

CHERVONI: No. I used to think, too there's-- On 141st, they set this up. Because every time we try to do something, it's funny how they built 30 houses on the block and not one tree. There's not even one tree on the sidewalk.

But there's a manhole cover in front of every house with electrical wires, I don't know probably for cable or whatever it is, [INAUDIBLE], whatever. But not one tree. And, then, across the street, you can see the old trees that have been in the neighborhood for a lot of years.

Supposedly, there's an organization that runs those houses. I don't know who it 01:24:00is. But, it's terrible. They just buy up land from the city, and then they do whatever they want to do. That's why it's good when the community gets involved and has these meetings to find out who's moving into the neighborhood and what they plan to do because the neighborhood needs what the neighborhood needs.

Like they be talking Oh, yeah affordable housing. Come on. People have to make at least $30,000 to $40,000 a year. Families out here are not making that much money, you know. I've got a friend of mine, he's trying to get an apartment. He makes too much, and he's not making enough money. So how does that work? It's terrible.

AMY STARECHESKI: What kind of people moved into the matchboxes?

CHERVONI: So you have-- the price must've been pretty cheap. They have Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, African Americans. They got Jamaicans. I don't think there's a white person that owns one of those houses, but there's white people that live in them because they're two-family houses.

So what happens is-- two-family houses. No, no, no. Wait up-- one, two. They're actually, yeah, it's two-family houses. But some of the houses, there's not actually a third family, but maybe a couple living, which it would be like probably a two-family house slash studio in some of the houses because I do have some white friends that live in some of those houses. Yeah. But it's not that 01:26:00many white people.

AMY STARECHESKI: People who live in those houses, do they mix with everybody else? Do they hang out?

CHERVONI: Not really. No. I see them come and go like every morning, taking the train and everything. Yeah. No. It's like they needed a place to move in. Then, you got the people with big money, it's like um, you know, they don't want to rent an apartment. They want a house. So they come and they buy people out.

I had this guy one time, I was on the block, and he was a Black guy-- African American. And he tells me, he gives me a business card. And I said, "what's up?" He says, "nah, you know anybody selling their house?" I said, "what do you mean?" He says, "yeah, we buy houses." And I looked at the card, and I said, 01:27:00"wait a minute, who buys houses, you?" He says, "no. My boss."

I said, "your boss is white, right?" He says, "yeah." I said, "aw. So they sent a black man down here into a Spanish-black neighborhood and try to get houses, right? I bet you your boss is a white, Jewish guy, right?" And he looked at me, like, oh, like, he didn't want to get no more into it.

And he just walked away. I said, you see, they got you doing the dirty work, man, just coming here, you know, like, people really don't want to sell their houses. But when they get the money offered, it's like they don't want to deal with the house no more, so they take the money and move on. And, eventually, they have to rent or buy something else.

AMY STARECHESKI: Do you have many friends that have been around here all along like you have?

CHERVONI: Yes, I have, yeah. They're like in the woodwork. Every once in a while, I see a couple of them. A lot of them are like, you know, they got jobs, 01:28:00families, you know. They're doing real good. And then I got a bunch of them that are still in the streets, still with the drugs and thinking it's still cool. I tell them, I say, "listen, the drugs now, it's killing people."

Years ago, it was real drugs. You bought some drugs, you got high, you was nice. Now, it's like, it does different things to you. It drives you crazy. It's like, you start hallucinating, or you get violent. You know, it's no. I remember, one time, there was drugs coming from, they said it was, they were using horse tranquilizers. And, then, [? Spanish ?] guys would all say, yeah, that's the same thing they're using in Puerto Rico.

You know it's crazy. And crushed pills. The epidemic is crazy with the drugs. 01:29:00And, then, they got this thing called K2. People are smoking this artificial weed. And the government's letting it in.

AMY STARECHESKI: This is the last thing I want to-- I'm sure I'll think of more stuff later, but you said that you played the trombone when you were a kid?

CHERVONI: Yes.

AMY STARECHESKI: And you were a DJ?

CHERVONI: I used to play the trombone in Burger Junior High School. Yeah. There's no music class no more there. There's no music. The printing class is over. This thing with the schools and the charter schools and these-- oh, come on, please. Just better the schools, not just, like, stop supporting them and then do something else. Support the teachers.

But yeah, I used to be in a band, played trombone. I kind of did DJing because, 01:30:00I think it was my older brother, he always used to play. He was a Vietnam vet. And he always listened to music like the Beatles. And there's a whole bunch of old music. I can't even get the words out. But, yeah, I think I got it from my brother.

And, also, from hanging out with the DJs, like, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Run-DMC, [INAUDIBLE] and all that, all those rappers and the DJs. So you start wanting to DJ. I remember my DJ equipment, oh, it was-- so years ago, they had this-- I think it was called a component. I forgot what it was. So it would be a big box with a TV, speakers built in, a radio, a record player in the inside. So we used to find them on the street. We used to take the record 01:31:00players out. And then the record players wasn't in a box. So we would take the record player, and take it, and put it on top of four cans of soup. We would put it on top of four cans of soup. You could see all the wires hanging on the bottom.

And then we would find a mixer, which it wasn't a DJ mixer, it was a microphone mixer, where you could plug in some mics, so it would be small. And we'd have the two turntables on top of cans of soup under a little mixer. And then the speakers we had, they weren't in boxes. So we only had the actual speakers.

But we would put a chain on it. And if we threw a party in the house, you know the parents didn't care, so we would put a couple of nails on the window frames up there and hang the speakers up there with chains, and just DJ in your house, throw parties. We used to throw a lot of hooky parties. Like, don't go to school, and we would meet in a certain area. And we'd all be playing hooky, and 01:32:00playing music, and having a good time.

And then eventually, I started liking DJing. I started getting my own equipment. And then my little brother use to borrow my equipment. And then one time, they robbed him for all my equipment. And I was selling drugs back in the day, so I told him, "no, don't worry about it. I'll buy you some equipment."

So my brother grew up with four other guys. And they all started DJing. And a couple of them are professionals. They call themselves the Wiz Kids. So they actually are-- play, they DJ live. They DJ live. They're on the internet, you know. So we were talking about going online, and they say, oh, on the chat room, say, we have-- they used to call me Disco D because I loved the disco music, you know. And they used to say, the founder of the Wiz Kids, you know.

So I love music. It calms the beast in me. I need it. You know, there's times I might not feel good. I go upstairs and put on my music. Even my little Bose speaker that my friend Jakai gave me for Christmas. So I love my music. I love it. You know, music is good. It soothes the mind. It makes your relax and think about life

AMY STARECHESKI: You said you remember seeing Grandmaster Flash and being around for that.

CHERVONI: Yeah, there was a lot of DJs in the parks. Like, you could hear-- like, right now, you could go online, or watch, they'll be like, yeah, let's take it to the park. And they'll play the old music that used to be played in the parks. And there would be, like every day, there would be in one of the 01:34:00parks, there would be DJs DJing.

Now, it's hard. You can't-- you actually have to go to the park with a posse, you know, with a bunch of friends in case there's any trouble. Back in the days, we would go to different-- from park to park. People would be drinking, and smoking, and dancing, and having a good time. And every once in a while, they'd have an open mic, and rappers, and some of the girls would have competition and dancing and you know it was nice. It was nice back in the days, you know.

And, now, it's like-- and people did it for fun. Now, like-- people, it was like showing off. Yeah, I'm going to go to the park and DJ, just to show off your equipment, how you played, and the crowd you drew. But now it's all about money. Now it's all about money. It's a big business in it now.

AMY STARECHESKI: I'm sure there'll be more, but is there anything else that you wanted to talk about or anything that I should have asked you about that I didn't?

CHERVONI: Let me see here.

AMY STARECHESKI: [LAUGHS]

CHERVONI: No. Not really. It's like when you go shopping. You think you bought everything, but you didn't.

[LAUGHTER]

You buy all the food, and you get ready to make a lasagna, and you say, where's the meat? [CHUCKLES]

AMY STARECHESKI: That is exactly what it's like. Luckily, I see you all the time, so we can always do more if you don't mind.

CHERVONI: So if you don't make a shopping list, you're in trouble.

AMY STARECHESKI: I know there's going to be something.

CHERVONI: It's nice. It's OK. You can always do the cut--

[LAUGHTER]

--and start over.

AMY STARECHESKI: Take two.

CHERVONI: Take two and start all over again. Yeah. Part 1, 2, 3.

AMY STARECHESKI: All right. Well, thank-- I really appreciate you doing this. I know you--

CHERVONI: Oh, you're welcome.

AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah. I appreciate it. And I'll send you the tape. You can give it to your kids if you want, or your wife, or just keep it. And, yeah, I'll keep you posted as I keep working with the audio.

CHERVONI: Life in the hood is an experience. You know, when life-- life anywhere. Life anywhere is an experience. Especially when you've been there a lot of years, and a lot of years, and lot of years.

AMY STARECHESKI: I've been thinking about this a lot because, I mean, I've only been here for 20 years. But it feels-- you know, it's half my life.

CHERVONI: Wow, you've been here 20.

AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah.

CHERVONI: Wow.

AMY STARECHESKI: But, you know, it's like, when you walk around, it's like you're in the present, but you're also-- like, I'm always seeing how stuff used to be, or remember something that happened to me on this corner or that corner, 01:37:00and there start to be so many layers to every place, of how it is now, how it was five years ago, that thing that happened to you 10 years.

CHERVONI: Yeah, yeah. It's like on 149th Street, there used to be a train that used to come out from underground. It used to come from underground and come up and go up. The Bronx has a lot of things that have been taken down.

You actually have to, like-- I think, not on this phone, but on my other phone, I have a picture of 141st Street, the whole 141st from Brook Avenue to Willis. And all the buildings are there. The school is there. The church is there. But you can see the cars. And the cars are from the '50s, the '50s and '60s. They're like big-- they look like big tanks.

AMY STARECHESKI: When you walk down Brook Avenue or down 138th Street, what is like?

CHERVONI: I don't like it. You've been to the Puerto Rican Theater? [INAUDIBLE]

AMY STARECHESKI: With the church?

CHERVONI: Yeah. That was our theater.

AMY STARECHESKI: I've never been in there.

CHERVONI: Yeah, that was a theat--

AMY STARECHESKI: On Brown Place?

CHERVONI: That's a theater. So we used to go in through the front, or we used to sneak in through the back. Yeah, they used to call it the Puerto Rican Theater. Yeah. Also, like People's Park. People's Park, we used to have Willie Colón, Celia Cruz. The big bands used to come there. Tito Puente. Yeah, so you know. We used to have a lot of concerts in that park.

We'd be sitting there rolling joints in front of the police. [CHUCKLES] So it 01:39:00was joints. Those days were nice. They were cool. They were cool. You know-- I was talking to my brother, my brother who lives in Florida. And he's ex-military, retired, post office, retired. You know when the neighborhoods are good when we had police on the beat.

They weren't riding around in cars, on their cell phones. They were actually walking the block. And we knew all the police officers. They were like-- not like family, but like friends. Like, they knew us. You know, we always saw them. That's when the neighborhoods were good. Now, it's like, they just ride by. Somebody could-- things could be happening. They're just riding by. Those were the good old days.

AMY STARECHESKI: I was talking to Carol [INAUDIBLE] about what it's like being a white person in this neighborhood. And, you know, I feel like I'm never invisible. You know, like, everyone always notices me. They notice me different now than they did 20 years ago. But I never feel like I'm just kind of part of everything. Do you know what I mean?

CHERVONI: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

AMY STARECHESKI: But I feel like also, from what I've seen of walking around with you, like, everybody knows you. You're not invisible either. But I'm asking what it's like to walk around here in part because I just imagine that your experience is really different than mine.

CHERVONI: Oh, yeah.

AMY STARECHESKI: I mean, being a man, and being Puerto Rican, and being from here.

CHERVONI: Yeah. Yes.

AMY STARECHESKI: Versus being a white woman.

CHERVONI: One thing I will not commit is a crime.

AMY STARECHESKI: [LAUGHS]

CHERVONI: They will get me. [CHUCKLES] They will get me.

[LAUGHTER]

AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah, you're not going to hide around here.

CHERVONI: I'm not doing nothing. I'm messing. I'm not even jaywalking. No. Yeah. 01:41:00Yeah, but you know I feel-- you know, me being sobered for so many years and doing a lot of positive things in the community and everything, I feel it.

And for people like you, you know, it's terrible. It's terrible. You know, in a good way and in a bad way. But I can see where you're coming from, where, you know, you feel different. But, then, after a while, I don't know if you get over it or not. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you can't.

AMY STARECHESKI: What do you mean when you say, it's terrible.

CHERVONI: You know, the way people judge people and all this. Like, I'm in Brook Park, and I'm on the block. It's like people, you know, a white guy comes in. I said, "welcome, come on in. Don't just stand there. Go inside the garden." It's not like, yeah, what the hell is that white guy doing here?

The fuck is-- you know, [INAUDIBLE] getting out. Is he a cop, or is he a landlord or somebody? No. My only thing is if he's one of the kufi, all right? If he's Jewish, then, I know he's trying to buy something. He's trying to buy the community and get us out. Raise the rent. Yeah, it's like, some people want to be judges.

AMY STARECHESKI: At the same time, I don't think white people have a great track record around here. So I don't judge anyone for judging, or certainly not for noticing. But I also-- yeah.

CHERVONI: Yeah, but as far as the track record, I don't see it as bad because 01:43:00it's not like some white guy came and bought up the neighborhood, moved everybody out. You know, white people are moving into the neighborhood. And it's cool when you see-- like you, mother, father, the kids. That's cool. A nice family.

But, now, you see one person by himself, and most of the time And they're walking around, got a suit on or whatever, looking around, taking pictures. These guys are looking to buy up something. He's taking pictures of the neighborhood, taking them back to his office. Look. "Look, what I found. Yo, look at this building. Maybe we can buy this, buy that." That's different.

That's my judging, you know that I could tell-- I try to see the difference, you know, split them up. But as far as you know like, every white person is not coming in here to move us out. They're just looking for an affordable place to 01:44:00live and then a good place for their kids, you know, a good environment.

AMY STARECHESKI: [CHUCKLES] All right. Well thank you, Danny. Anything else you want to add?

CHERVONI: You're welcome. When do bars open?

AMY STARECHESKI: I know. [LAUGHS]