Davis_and_Jackson_20070909

Segment Synopsis: Interviewing Davis and Jackson, September 9th 2007. Thelma Jackson's maiden name is Moore. Second session with Mr. Davis, first with Ms. Jackson.

Segment Synopsis: Born in Pennsylvania, both parents immigrants. Father arrived in 1917 from Cuba with goal of becoming a civil engineer, had worked on the Panama Canal. He was fluent in Spanish, stronger than English. Paid less than Caucasians because he was of African decent - silver vs. gold. Arrived in America, tried to get into Cooper Union and wasn't accepted. Father met mother through mothers brother, arranged marriage. Mother knew nothing about father prior to marriage.

Segment Synopsis: Thelma was the first of 10 children, born in Philadelphia, moved to NYC when she was three months old. Lived in San Juan Hill. Majority of residents were from the Caribbean, of African descent, spoke English & French. Describes it as a "self sufficient" neighborhood - two doctors, two midwives, a drug store, a dry goods store. Lived there until the depression, after that people scattered. Her family moved to Harlem (142nd Street), from there moved around for a time before settling in The Bronx (136th Street).

Segment Synopsis: Cold water flat - no hot water, no heat. No toilet facilities in the apartment, communal ones in the hall. No bathroom, bathtub in the kitchen. Stayed there for a while. She had 3 brothers and 2 sisters - 3 of her siblings were born in 136th street. 6 buildings on the block - one was entirely white, mainly Italian. There was a saloon on the corner across the street, recalls a commotion that occurred with Mr. Davis.

Segment Synopsis: 136th Street totally different from El Barrio, the black people that lived there were mainly African American whereas the black people in El Barrio were from the Caribbean and Central/South America. Norman notes that the black people who lived in the Bronx were originally from the south. The Caribbean folks would fight other people, didn't care who. Norman Davis lived on the west side of 3rd Avenue between 3rd and Rider.

Segment Synopsis: Beyond Rider was the canal - now a street (Canal Street). There were barges on the canal and would park there, like in Hong Kong. Across the street from the canal was the Fox Calcimine Company. All of the employees at the calcimine were white, they had a platform in the street that would be used as a loading platform. All of the youngsters would sit on the platform on summer nights and it was so wide it could accommodate the whole block. Around the corner was the Chinese laundry, now home to a Dunkin' Doughnuts. Chinese laundry was always looking for help - good if you were looking for a days or weeks work. Both of Normans parents worked there, none of Thelma's did. "Charlie's Grocery Store" also next to the saloon. Thelma says that black people used to be called "negroes", Norman says that they have been called everything.

Segment Synopsis: On the west side of Rider Avenue was a huge junk yard. Used to play with friends, "Buck Rogers land". Played on the barges with Thelma's younger brothers and sisters - never really knew Thelma until 8 years ago. Norman's family - uncle and grandmother - lived on the same block as Thelma. Buildings were 5 stories high, but "short stories". Buildings on 138th were knocked down to make way for a filling station, 3 companies have owned it but its never worked out. Thelma says she was never allowed to come out to play as a child because she was the oldest and was raised in accordance with Caribbean beliefs. She had to be the servant, the nurse, the doctor, the baby-sitter, the nanny for the whole family. No laughter or relaxing - very strict upbringing. Rules didn't apply to her sisters, one of her sisters was very rebellious.

Segment Synopsis: Thelma's mother was born in Barbados, neither of her parents were slaves. Barbados was the first British Colony in the Caribbean, considered very valuable because of sugar. Thelma's mother was a dressmaker, her grandmother was an unlicensed veterinarian her grandfather was a shipbuilder who build scooners for deepwater. Thelma's mother used to go on the shakedown crews for the wooden ships - where ships would be taken out to test if they were sea worthy. Grandfather built ships on the beach, not a yard. Grandfathers ships sailed the Caribbean, South America, Central America on consignment. Mother went to school until she was 14, which was the standard cut off age for girls in the Caribbean at that time, but she was very well read. Knew the classics, liked music as well as literature. She came to USA in 1918, with the understanding she would come and live with her brother who had also been in Panama. Planned to work, save up and go home. Brother was supposed to send back money but fell in love and went back on his promises. Thelma's mother worked in factory, was very beautiful but because she was black she was wasn't allowed in the union or to work with the sowing machines. Her mother never became a US citizen - disgusted by instances of police brutality and didn't want to be part of it. Never thought of America as her home, felt like she had not protection or rights in the USA. She looked at The Bronx as part of the world, not just America but international.

Segment Synopsis: Father was very different - disgruntled, didn't smile, not talkative. People were afraid of him - children and adults. Big man. He was a carpenter, wanted to be a civil engineer. Father was also born in Barbados, but left and moved to Cuba as a child. Father never told stories about working on the canal, everything Thelma knows about her father comes from relatives who lived elsewhere in NYC. He was disappointed. He was political, became a citizen during WW2. Worked in shipyard. Parents stayed on 136th for many years. Father was a very enterprising business man - owned 4 houses. Wasn't frivolous with money, didn't gamble. Only had what was necessary.

Segment Synopsis: Divide between black people from the South and black people from the islands. Folks from the Caribbean had been taught to read, write and manual trades - unlike black folks from the South who because of slavery didn't have those opportunities. Folks from the Caribbean found it easier to get jobs in the USA, folks from the South were looked down upon and many became farmers. Southerners resented the Caribbean folks because of this. Thelma's dad made his way in the USA - Norman speaks with admiration about his business sense and intelligence. He owned 4 or 5 buildings on Old Broadway in Manhattan. Norman remarks how important it is that he (Thelma's father) was a black, self made man. Taught himself to type and shorthand. Thelma feels bitter because he was never able to achieve what he had come to this country to do which was to be a civil engineer. Proud of him and what he achieved in spite of the obstacles he faced like never being able to join a union. Caribbean men formed own union called 1888.

Segment Synopsis: Thelma's father was interested in civic issues, in history of USA - how the constitution was formed etc. He had friends that would come and have discussions about politics. Thelma used to stand off to the side and listen in. Knew her letters before she went to school. Her mother converted to Catholicism from Church of England, her father went to the synagogue - his Rabi was from Ethiopia. Her family didn't like the idea that she married someone out of the faith. Mother was christened by Thelma's grandmother - in order to go to school, you had to be christian. Mother converted to Catholicism at St. Jeromes because the Church of England chapel was too far downtown. When she got to St Jeromes, she walked in and everyone went silent because she was a non-white woman in a white Catholic Church. They wanted to know what she was doing there. When Thelma got older and had children of her own, her mother didn't like the public schools so chose to convert so her grandchildren could get into the better catholic schools - "if you belong to anything and it cant do anything for you, leave it alone." Parents eventually went home to Barbados.

Segment Synopsis: Parents went home to Barbados - father wanted to see what happened to his property there. Father had a brother (Thelma's uncle) who he supported, brother had worked for the united food company in Honduras and when the USA instigated a coup there it meant that everyone who lived in Honduras but wasn't born there and were non-white were forced to leave. So uncle lost job and his wife wasn't able to return to Barbados with him because she wasn't a citizen - she went back to Jamaica with her child, he went back to Barbados. Father used to support him because there wasn't any work in Barbados. Sent him money to buy land and build on it - put it in his own name, not her fathers.

Segment Synopsis: Thelma's father attended a synagogue in Manhattan, in Harlem. Rabi's name was Moses. Only found these things out third, or fourth hand. When her father was dying he was prayed over by a catholic because no one knew of his Jewish faith.

Segment Synopsis: Black community grew from the 550 in the 1920s to 1000 in the 1930s. Thelma's family didn't mix with other black people and other black people didn't mix with them. Sometimes she would get verbal abuse. No marrying or mixing between the different black communities - each one had their own little churches and stores. Thelma's folks went to the Episcopal school, she attended the parochial school downtown. Thelma also ended up attending Sunday school and church - on one Sunday the woman who used to take her didn't come so Thelma spent the dime that was supposed to be for the collection plate on candy. Parents didn't give her into trouble.

Segment Synopsis: Norman's folks were from the South and were Methodists or Baptists. AME church. Norman's mother was Catholic and from Baltimore, father was from the Bible Belt. Bible Belt interpretation was designed to keep slaves in line. The only thing Norman liked about church was communion because they had grape juice. When he got married, he converted to Catholicism. Norman talks about the messengers/prophets of the three major religions - Christianity, Islam and Confucianism. When people came up from the south they still believed that they were inferior because of the version of the Bible that they had been taught. That their reward would come in heaven, but that they would have to suffer for it on earth. Clashes between his mother and grandmother. His mother didn't go to St Jeromes.

Segment Synopsis: The only black folks that Norman knew were the ones on 136th street. The South Bronx was all caucasian. When Norman went to school, there were three black students - himself and his two cousins. You didn't go to the hospital for anything. Doctor used to give you the medicine so you didn't have to go to the drug store. Norman was born in Harlem Hospital, was injured during the birth - 7 hour labour, dry birth. Norman's spine was injured. Grandmother said that it was God's will - but mother knew something wasn't right and that he should be walking. Took him to the hospital and when he came out a week later, he was standing holding onto the chair. Can walk and dance. Never went back for a reexamination - has suffered with constant pain ever since. Norman's first girlfriend was Irish. Her name was Catherine.

Segment Synopsis: Norman says the only black folks he ever saw were the ones who lived on 136th - on this one block that Norman calls "the dead end of The Bronx." To go from the east side to the west side of 3rd Avenue you had to fight your way across. You had to cross in order to get to the grocery store. Thelma and her sister tried to cross the street, came back crying because they couldn't cross. Mother sent them back out with pieces of firewood to beat off the people who were harassing them - or their mother would beat them. Came from a Caribbean fighting family. Norman says that fighting spirit was beaten out of the folks who came up from the south - they were more likely to bow down. Norman's family didn't have the same problem as Thelma's because they lived on the same side of 3rd as the store.

Segment Synopsis: His father was a very laid back man, matriarchal household. One day one of his father's first cousins was jumped - came from a big family, his grandmother's mother had had 10 children. He went over to where his cousin had been jumped (between Lincoln and 3rd) and pulled out a gun. Norman could believe it - had never even heard his father expressing that level of anger. His father was maybe 19 at the time - confronted the group (Thelma agrees that there was always a group of them). Norman struggles to picture his father in that way. Wasn't children who were doing the attacking - it was men and women.

Segment Synopsis: Thelma notes that anyone who had one drop of black blood was supposed to be subservient to anyone with white blood - which has its roots in the Bible. 2300 bibles printed in the US for the different denominations, all of them agree that black people should be "underfoot." Speak about the way that slaves were tortured - roasting, pulling apart, beatings. Both argue that because the Caribbean folks weren’t exposed to that that they were able to be more independent and assertive. There were slaves in the Caribbean under the British. Thelma has always been interested in History – made a point of studying lots of different experiences. Norman recalls the story of a Sunday night and his neighbor whose wife if from the Dominican Republic. All the neighbor spoke about was the separation of the island, which he felt was a mistake – but never presented a solution. Norman contrasts this to the experience of slaves who never had their own land and were brought over from places like Côte D’Ivoire “like pigs”. Broke up families and then brought them here to the USA. Everyone knows each other in the Dominican Republic – whereas in the USA you get people who betray their own people. Gives the example of slave uprisings that he argues were not quashed by the white man alone, but by being betrayed by another slave. In America you wouldn’t even know the person next to you and he would sell you out.
In 1800 when people were being imported as slaves until 1807 when the British decided it was too expensive to continue bringing slaves in. Thelma notes that people were not slaves in Africa, idea that “we were brought from Africa as slaves” is wrong – they were free people. People were turned into slaves “after they got their hands on us.” You had to learn the language of your overseer so you could do the work. There were so many uprisings in the Africa and in the USA – the people that were being brought over were not passive people. No one wants to be beaten – people fought back. Willie Lynch – don’t import Africans anymore, raise the Africans you have here and indoctrinate them into thinking they are subservient, but don’t let them have contact with people from the continent. This is the root of the tension between the Caribbean’s and African Americans in the South Bronx.

Segment Synopsis: Norman says there were no black people in Mott Haven going back until 1970. White Castle hamburger company, from Ohio. Had girls in short skirts that would skate around the restaurant with trays. James Farmer was head of CORE – very militant because he was involved with Dr. Martin Luther King. There weren’t any black girls skating or waiting on cars in White Castle. Farmer decided to change that – announced he was going to bring in 3 young black girls to Throggs Neck in the South Bronx. They had to get the police to escort them because the Italians who lived in the area were so angry – and armed. The young women never ended up getting the job. Rather than hire the black women, they took the skates away all together and stopped the waiting on cars. That’s why all the White Castles now are all drive in. This was in 1970/75. Reiterates that he never saw another black person when he was growing up.

Segment Synopsis: You could see two movies for 10 cents, Norman would sneak in. Notes that if you walked to 138th, you would see a gap in the buildings where the 2nd Avenue L used to be. The fare was 5 cents. When Norman lived in East Harlem, the New Haven went underground at 97th and doesn’t come back up again until Grand Central. But it comes out and blows all of the smog at 125th street. Where Norman lived was called "Over the Bridge" - from Park Avenue to 5th. Before the FDR was built it was called "the coast". Norman lived in a cold water flat between 2nd and 3rd.

Segment Synopsis: The Grand Concourse was like the Champs Elyses - actually inspired by Paris in the way it was built. No people of African descent there unless they were cleaning, Norman argues that you didn't see any at all. Even the superintendents were not black. The only people you occasionally see was a woman who would do a days work, pay very poor (25 cents an hour). You would get lunch - but it was stale bread and cold coffee.

Segment Synopsis: Thelma went to PS31 which was on Mott Avenue (now Grand Concourse) - doesn't think there were any more than 10 black children in the whole school. It was her, her two sisters were the only black children in PS31. It was on 144th. Thelma cant remember if any of the other black children on the block also went to that school. Had a teacher, Ms Collins, who taught gym. Was nice. Thelma was excellent in history and geography. She was an excellent student, got good marks. Was supposed to get a reward for history and geography but never got it because she was black - prize was given to two white students who didn't do as well as her. They were segregated at school. You were assigned a seat at the back of the room, or the last in the row. Other students didn't speak to them.

Segment Synopsis: Used to be called "the block." Norman's mum bought him his first bike at 14. Used to ride it from "the block" - lived in East Harlem. After his parents split up, his mother would still bring Norman up every weekend to Mott Haven to see his father - made him realize that his mother probably still loved his father. They remarried in the Catholic Church in 1945 after his mother (who had never approved of their marriage) died. The Grand Concourse was really clean, people sitting enjoying the sun. Would ride through there to get to orchard beach. Norman compares it to Paris and describes his trip - disappointment that people didn't dress better. Only two men he was wore suits. 136th wasn't dirty, but Grand Concourse was immaculate.

Segment Synopsis: Fox were only operating during the daytime - not really any pollution. Piano Factory on 133rd, where Bruckner Blvd is now. When they built Bruckner Blvd, they invoked imminent domain and kicked the residents out of their homes. When they were building it Norman was 14. Huge piles of dirt. Norman and his friend would fly kites off them - no buildings so kites would fly high.

Segment Synopsis: Children back in Thelma/Norman's day were involved in "clean activities". Thelma talks about how drugs, specifically cocaine, was cooked up to keep the African American population docile during the 60s when there was more militancy. It was supposed to be sold only to the black communities, but ended up being sold to whites as well. Rockafellar's nephew died from crack overdose.

Segment Synopsis: Thelma and Norman's family no longer lived on 136th by the time they bulldozed it. When Norman's great grandmother died, they lived in Edgefield, big house. His grandfather was a man of influence, one of his daughters was a school teacher. Land was plentiful. Back of the house was all woods. Norman went there when he was 10 during the summer. Paid for with his grandmothers pension. They knew that the white people wouldn't be happy that he had a bigger house - the white people "the crackers" burned the house down. Learned a lot of things that summer being out of the city. House was burned to the ground while the family were at church on Sunday. They needed up living on welfare in the projects - the first projects on 440 E105th next to FDR. Norman lived at 41 E 105th Street. Was a very Italian neighborhood to get between the two places - was worried it would be hostile territory. Only his grandfather paid the taxes - one of 10 children. Norman's mother had her own business and suggested paying the taxes. She lost that argument and the family lost the house. Norman wants to go down to see if he would have been a millionaire.

Segment Synopsis: Was traditional not to allow people of African descent to go to school - If you were caught reading, you would be beaten. Norman worked in Morningside park for the parks department. Spoke with a man who was from South Carolina who knew his grandfather and his house - well known, popular, played the guitar. Speaks more about his father and how he was ruined by his mother (Norman's grandmother). His mother always belittled him. When Norman was 22 he fired back as his grandmother's nasty comments to his father, his father was timid. Grandmother had no answer for him. When Norman's mother left him in 1931, he never had a home of his own until he died in 1952 - slept on his mother's couch. Would sneak out and visit her at work in the beauty shop.

Segment Synopsis: Thelma was in Riverdale 3/4 years ago. Didn't see any black people, just one or two Puerto Ricans. she was reminded of 136th back in the old days. she sees more black people downtown in the upper middle class neighborhoods now. Mott Haven being taken over - rents are going to go up. When Norman moved here, the cost of a house was $21,000 in 1981 - now its $500,000 for newly renovated apartments.

Segment Synopsis: Norman's grandmother had a bible. When his grandfather died she had to leave public housing, was moved to Roosevelt Island. Asked Normans mother if she would take her - Normans mother said no, that she wouldn't treat her right for all of the things that she had done to her - wouldn't want it on her consciousness. "God and the Government are going to take care of me".

Segment Synopsis: Norman's family - both sides were born in 1840. Davis's were free, but the other side of his family were in politics. James Davis could read, write, play instruments, children went to college. His grandfather's brother was a traveling carpenter who had worked on rebuilding Fort Sumpter after WW2. His great grandmother's parents were the slave owner and the cook. Normans wants to find who the slave owner was when he goes down south to do research. Doesn't view his family as slaves in that respect. Tells an anecdote about Presidents with black people on their crests. William Jefferson Clinton and Eisenhower. Thelma's family didn't know anything about slavery except for her great great great grandfather. Another relative who was a blacksmith during slavery, after it was over he continued his trade. Her mother saw a white man when she was growing up who had a missing ear and part of his jaw missing, when she asked her family why he was like that it was because he had borrowed money from the blacksmith and didn't pay it back on time. This white man had been the blacksmith's master - the blacksmith took a machete to him because the white man wished to see a return of slavery. Thelma describes the ways that slaves would revolt against their masters. Explains why the relationship between whites and blacks on 136th was so fraught.